TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Anthony Barnstable wrote: For simplicity:

MEC
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power 1/room

MM
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power or Improved Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Legendary
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power, Improved Mage Power, or Arch-Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Then we can easily meet the deadlines with no time crunch concerns and have a reasonable amount of time like 1-2 weeks to discuss what these three powers are and how many options for each should initially exist.

+1

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Once again, I step away for a few hours and come back to see things heading in a different direction. When I left, I know there were concerns around using hp as the resource, I thought Jeff expressed his thoughts for why that made sense to him. I'm not completely opposed to going in another direction, but we have a long history of tokens that impact hp which give me a lot of flexibility. I'm afraid that moving to another resource will provide very few options and we'll just end up with cookie-cutter wizards who all look the same because only a handful of tokens (at most) can impact their ability. Anyway, that's just my high level thought.

Go ahead and continue to brainstorm new ideas understanding we probably have only around 48 hours to lock this down. Was the prior proposal unworkable? Was it broken? Was it going to cause a mass flight of players from the game? Not trying to be a stop to any of this, but am trying to understand the necessity of creating a whole new dynamic in such a short period of time. In any event, appreciate all the passion people seem to have in this. I'm certain everyone is trying to do what they think is right.

The previous change to Mad Evoker's Charm would have cost the game a minimum of at least 2 Legendary level Wizards permanently as it invalidated their entire builds. It would also cost a Relic legel Bard, Monk and Rogue because I would have no reason to host token builds for my friends if I no longer play the game.


The current design is perfectly fine to me and Jeff's explanation removed any worry on my end of the design promoting self harm in any way.

That doesn't seem to be the case for Anthony but he's demanding the game change to meet his personal needs instead of just changing how he plays the game to protect the mental health of his group.

I don't agree with changing the entire game to protect 2 players from an occurrence they've so far never encountered (per his own words saying they've never run with an MEC wizard) and that can easily be protected against forever by simply not joining random groups and making sure that groups they join don't have MEC build Wizards in them. I see no reason why EVERYONE should change their gameplay and how they enjoy playing the game just to allow two people to freely join random PUG groups when they would be at no risk of triggering if they simply formed their own play groups

I don’t know your personal experience, but I have been trying for at least 3 years now to form a consistent group of 10 and am finding that next to impossible. I am not sure how you are having such an easy time with it.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: For simplicity:

MEC
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power 1/room

MM
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power or Improved Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Legendary
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power, Improved Mage Power, or Arch-Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Then we can easily meet the deadlines with no time crunch concerns and have a reasonable amount of time like 1-2 weeks to discuss what these three powers are and how many options for each should initially exist.

Absolutely 100% no.

I will not support a change to the core design of the MEC token like this. It completely invalidates an extreme number of builds.

Since it’s not stated what a mage power is, we can’t say it invalidates builds. If the mage power stands as is/what has been proposed, eg sacrifice HP for spell boost, then it’s no different to what has been discussed to date. Using this key wording on the tokens allows them to be printed and then time taken to continue the discussion.

kurtreznor wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: There was a compelling game reason from Jeff that MEC had to fundamentally change. At least 2 Wizards have expressed very compelling social reasons to change either MEC or a MEC-based relic/legendary (and they have been mostly shouted down with the idea “political correctness is bad”).

Yeah, I have been disappointed by the insensitive responses made by a few here on the forums. They are dismissing a serious trauma by equating it with a simple dislike. Not only does that show a lack of sympathy for your fellow gamers, but it creates barriers to having the conversation that we need to have: is this a problem that needs fixing?

I think it is just the nature of things that there is a whole spectrum of what shouldn't be printed. TD isn't going to put the Confederate flag on a new banner token, but a holy symbol for a made-up diety is ok even though there are likely a few religious types who would be offended. So, where does this ability fall on that spectrum? I tend to fall on the side that it isn't explicit enough to warrant changing, but the fact that multiple people are bringing it up as an issue is making me question that stance. This is a discussion that should be had...though, maybe in private by concerned parties with Jeff, who can discuss those concerns with whomever he feels can help him make the best decision.

People who have trauma triggers related to war do not petition movie theatres to remove all movies depicting war. They modify their own moviegoing experience to protect against being triggered by war scenes.

The people who could be triggered by their interpretation of the Mad Evoker's Charm could avoid the entire trigger by not joining groups with Mad Evoker Wizards or groups where the player makeup is unknown.

The could ask the Mad Evoker Wizards to not make self harm references while using the coin.

Instead of these actions they could take of their own accord they are instead asking to have the token banned from use and in turn completely invalidate large sections of the Mad Evoker Wizard's current token selection. Requiring dozens of players to change thousands of dollars worth of tokens to adapt their playstyle. All because these players are not willing to protect themselves proactively.

I have NO issue with trauma triggers and protecting the mental health of players.

I have an EXTREME issue with self entitled players who want to force their decisions on other people and cost dozens of players thousands of dollars worth of design rebuilding.

Anthony,
May I ask you a question in all seriousness and with deference?
I have played Wizard for many years. I enjoy using MEC and will probably enjoy the new Relic and Legendary. That being said:
If we were in a pick up group and anyone in your group mentioned it, I would be perfectly fine with simply giving the DM my Damage total without additional commentary.
I realize that means it’s incumbent on the person who is concerned to say something but.......,,

Would that be sufficient???

Aeroneus Martellus wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: For simplicity:

MEC
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power 1/room

MM
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power or Improved Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Legendary
Usable by Wizards
Use Mage Power, Improved Mage Power, or Arch-Mage Power 1/round, each power max 1/room

Then we can easily meet the deadlines with no time crunch concerns and have a reasonable amount of time like 1-2 weeks to discuss what these three powers are and how many options for each should initially exist.

Absolutely 100% no.

I will not support a change to the core design of the MEC token like this. It completely invalidates an extreme number of builds.

Since it’s not stated what a mage power is, we can’t say it invalidates builds. If the mage power stands as is/what has been proposed, eg sacrifice HP for spell boost, then it’s no different to what has been discussed to date. Using this key wording on the tokens allows them to be printed and then time taken to continue the discussion.

The Mad Evoker Charm channels health for damage.

The Mad Evoker Mage Power is converting the spell from a Standard Action to a Free Action.

Suggesting all reference to the Mad Evoker Charm using channeling of HP into Damage is unnecessary to the current design. The Mage Powers are in question. The HP channeling into the effects is not

If there is a different ability that can sub in for paying HP and still function for the game and keep the theme of over-exertion, great. That could be an easy out for the issue of self-harm.

I know some are against the idea of another number to track, but I don't see a good way to do this without it. Extra spell boxes or mage power boxes that are spent can work, but that loses the over-exertion theme and is just another resource.

What if the wizard has a base Mana pool equal to starting HP on the card. Any tokens equipped that add HP (even by +CON) can increase either HP or Mana, but not both. During play, healing the wizard above max HP goes toward healing their spent Mana.

I wouldn't be surprised to see high level wizards going in the dungeon with only 21 HP and a crap-ton of Mana.

The new character cards would need to implement and use this Mana in some way. Maybe spending Mana is how you activate current abilities of wand mastery or polymorph boosting. Which could also let wizard and elf wizard tailor which ability they want instead of trying it to the elf vs human.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Here is a possible starting point for something that doesn't explicitly use HP as a resource but still encourages having a lot of it (if desired).

*Important Note* the numbers below are off the cuff and will probably need to be tweaked by those who are good at such things.

Wizard card change includes the following:
Mage Power: As a free action use a mage power to augment the next spell cast. Each available Mage Power may be used 1 / room. 3 boxes.
Mage Power (Empower Spell): Adds 10 points of damage to spell.

Mad Evokers Charm:
Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Can use Mage Power (Evokers Wrath): Adds 20 points of damage to spell but monster gets a free attack against caster next round (this attack cannot be avoided or negated in any way).

Relic:
As MEC. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Legendary:
As Relic. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

This is not possible to design as the player cards are not designed yet and that change has not been made, examined or validated to not be overly strong (it's WAY too strong on the class card)

The easy solution is to say “additional damage” or “Mage Power” and then monster gets the attack. Keeps it vague so card design can balance with it appropriately, can easily be updated to scale, covers all the bases.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Here is a possible starting point for something that doesn't explicitly use HP as a resource but still encourages having a lot of it (if desired).

*Important Note* the numbers below are off the cuff and will probably need to be tweaked by those who are good at such things.

Wizard card change includes the following:
Mage Power: As a free action use a mage power to augment the next spell cast. Each available Mage Power may be used 1 / room. 3 boxes.
Mage Power (Empower Spell): Adds 10 points of damage to spell.

Mad Evokers Charm:
Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Can use Mage Power (Evokers Wrath): Adds 20 points of damage to spell but monster gets a free attack against caster next round (this attack cannot be avoided or negated in any way).

Relic:
As MEC. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Legendary:
As Relic. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

This is not possible to design as the player cards are not designed yet and that change has not been made, examined or validated to not be overly strong (it's WAY too strong on the class card)

As Jeff stated in the first post

Jeff Martin wrote: Since I am going to re-do the Wizards player cards next week to basically double the spell damage, then the need for the standard MEC is quite moot.

The damage on the Wizard cards is going to increase. We HAVE to consider that as part of this token design. My perspective is that it doesn't matter if that damage comes from a literal doubling of the spell base damage or from a new ability we can use in the token design.

kurtreznor wrote: If there is a different ability that can sub in for paying HP and still function for the game and keep the theme of over-exertion, great. That could be an easy out for the issue of self-harm.

I know some are against the idea of another number to track, but I don't see a good way to do this without it. Extra spell boxes or mage power boxes that are spent can work, but that loses the over-exertion theme and is just another resource.

What if the wizard has a base Mana pool equal to starting HP on the card. Any tokens equipped that add HP (even by +CON) can increase either HP or Mana, but not both. During play, healing the wizard above max HP goes toward healing their spent Mana.

I wouldn't be surprised to see high level wizards going in the dungeon with only 21 HP and a crap-ton of Mana.

The new character cards would need to implement and use this Mana in some way. Maybe spending Mana is how you activate current abilities of wand mastery or polymorph boosting. Which could also let wizard and elf wizard tailor which ability they want instead of trying it to the elf vs human.

I had suggested something similar a few posts(pages?) back. I exclusively play Elf Wiz and would be fine keeping track of another stat. Being dexterous with my stat/spell tracking is what I’m good at. Being dexterous with a puck - definitely not.

kurtreznor wrote: If there is a different ability that can sub in for paying HP and still function for the game and keep the theme of over-exertion, great. That could be an easy out for the issue of self-harm.

I know some are against the idea of another number to track, but I don't see a good way to do this without it. Extra spell boxes or mage power boxes that are spent can work, but that loses the over-exertion theme and is just another resource.

What if the wizard has a base Mana pool equal to starting HP on the card. Any tokens equipped that add HP (even by +CON) can increase either HP or Mana, but not both. During play, healing the wizard above max HP goes toward healing their spent Mana.

I wouldn't be surprised to see high level wizards going in the dungeon with only 21 HP and a crap-ton of Mana.

The new character cards would need to implement and use this Mana in some way. Maybe spending Mana is how you activate current abilities of wand mastery or polymorph boosting. Which could also let wizard and elf wizard tailor which ability they want instead of trying it to the elf vs human.

Is there a version of DnD that has mana? The limited number of spells per day thing is a managed resource. I don’t think adding a 3rd resource (1st 2 being health and spell limit) is wise with minimal time to work on it.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote: Here is a possible starting point for something that doesn't explicitly use HP as a resource but still encourages having a lot of it (if desired).

*Important Note* the numbers below are off the cuff and will probably need to be tweaked by those who are good at such things.

Wizard card change includes the following:
Mage Power: As a free action use a mage power to augment the next spell cast. Each available Mage Power may be used 1 / room. 3 boxes.
Mage Power (Empower Spell): Adds 10 points of damage to spell.

Mad Evokers Charm:
Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Can use Mage Power (Evokers Wrath): Adds 20 points of damage to spell but monster gets a free attack against caster next round (this attack cannot be avoided or negated in any way).

Relic:
As MEC. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Legendary:
As Relic. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

This is not possible to design as the player cards are not designed yet and that change has not been made, examined or validated to not be overly strong (it's WAY too strong on the class card)

The easy solution is to say “additional damage” or “Mage Power” and then monster gets the attack. Keeps it vague so card design can balance with it appropriately, can easily be updated to scale, covers all the bases.

I dont see giving the monster a free unlockable attack as as good thing...it invalidates several tokens, character abilities...paladin guard, and could also be used as a pseudo taunt ability.