TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Having played a non-MEC wizard since I started, I can't say as I'm happy that this is where our legendary went. To use our legendary, Wizard players now have to be a sap on team resources (my current build, which was part of a 4-man NM run this past VTD, only has 61HP. This means that, at most, I can use my special powers 4x a game by default.) Given that the +15 is baked into the MEC token (and thus must serve as the driver for all other powers), I'm going to be bowing out of playing Wizard from here on out.

Good luck getting this one balanced out, y'all. It's been real.

Boost Ally + Raphel Equipped Rogue + Assassin's Crossbow Sneak Attack = 300+ damage I bet on a slid 17+.

I've been following but not commenting on the discussion, but here I go, and please forgive my frankness. For context, our team is now running nightmare and considering trying epic soon. Also, I realize that I'm not going to be speaking for anyone out there who's a big fan of MEC builds.

This is pretty bad. It's just not fun for some of us. In the worst case, this could straight up trigger people and prevent them from playing TD at all.

The changes here take a class that is generally underserved in a lot of ways and force them into one specific playstyle to be the most effective at the high-end. This playstyle, self-harm, has both negative connotations out of the game and to some groups, including ours, just isn't fun.

The fact that the -only- way for a Wizard to engage with what should be the epitome of their class's tokens is to engage in such an incredibly controversial game mechanic is not a win for the Wizards amongst us and not for any of us who love True Dungeon.

I wish we would find a way to make the legendary make the class better overall and wouldn't force MEC builds or self-harm mechanics on anyone who would rather abstain.

Please give Wizards a choice and let them keep having fun.

Kaelten wrote: I've been following but not commenting on the discussion, but here I go, and please forgive my frankness. For context, our team is now running nightmare and considering trying epic soon. Also, I realize that I'm not going to be speaking for anyone out there who's a big fan of MEC builds.

This is pretty bad. It's just not fun for some of us. In the worst case, this could straight up trigger people and prevent them from playing TD at all.

The changes here take a class that is generally underserved in a lot of ways and force them into one specific playstyle to be the most effective at the high-end. This playstyle, self-harm, has both negative connotations out of the game and to some groups, including ours, just isn't fun.

The fact that the -only- way for a Wizard to engage with what should be the epitome of their class's tokens is to engage in such an incredibly controversial game mechanic is not a win for the Wizards amongst us and not for any of us who love True Dungeon.

I wish we would find a way to make the legendary make the class better overall and wouldn't force MEC builds or self-harm mechanics on anyone who would rather abstain.

Please give Wizards a choice and let them keep having fun.

Is there any way to preserve the mechanics in a way that would be appealing to you under a different description?

For example, if you had "mana" equal to your starting hitpoints, and spent "mana" to activate this item, and gained "mana" each time you healed, and lost "mana" each time you were damaged, etc.?

In other words, if we called HP "Mana" for users of these tokens would that change anything about how this is landing for you?

I would imagine Jeff could say something like "We plan on doing additional class legendaries in the future to highlight different aspects of classes." to give druids not into polymorph, rangers not into ranged, fighters not into one-handed weapons, wizards not into cutting themselves hope for another go at it.

I both understand how basing around MEC mechanics is unappealing to some and view this game as one not served well if tokens are universally appealing as that consumes design space. Widseth's Legendary was a rather obvious way to go, but will a bard legendary that does stuff not involving bardsong feel right?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kaelten wrote: I've been following but not commenting on the discussion, but here I go, and please forgive my frankness. For context, our team is now running nightmare and considering trying epic soon. Also, I realize that I'm not going to be speaking for anyone out there who's a big fan of MEC builds.

This is pretty bad. It's just not fun for some of us. In the worst case, this could straight up trigger people and prevent them from playing TD at all.

The changes here take a class that is generally underserved in a lot of ways and force them into one specific playstyle to be the most effective at the high-end. This playstyle, self-harm, has both negative connotations out of the game and to some groups, including ours, just isn't fun.

The fact that the -only- way for a Wizard to engage with what should be the epitome of their class's tokens is to engage in such an incredibly controversial game mechanic is not a win for the Wizards amongst us and not for any of us who love True Dungeon.

I wish we would find a way to make the legendary make the class better overall and wouldn't force MEC builds or self-harm mechanics on anyone who would rather abstain.

Please give Wizards a choice and let them keep having fun.

Is there any way to preserve the mechanics in a way that would be appealing to you under a different description?

For example, if you had "mana" equal to your starting hitpoints, and spent "mana" to activate this item, and gained "mana" each time you healed, and lost "mana" each time you were damaged, etc.?

In other words, if we called HP "Mana" for users of these tokens would that change anything about how this is landing for you?

Perhaps allow a spell to be sacrificed to generate (or fund another spell) 15 mana per spell level?

Ok, I guess I'm confused.

Does the Mage medallion grant the power of the MEC as well as 2 other options, or not?

If so, can a wizard player wear both and use the MEC power twice/room?

Fiddy wrote: I assume on some run I'm on, I'll be resurrecting Dave on round 1 of combat 1 as he goes straight from 100HP to 0.

Have you been reading my mind again?

Rather than inventing the mana concept, just a list of powers where not all require cutting.

E.g -
Wall of Force - Arch Mage Power - all Party members get +7AC for round
Enduring Enhancement - Arch Mage Power - Imbibe a single potion in coaches room, it carries for the entire game.

And the beauty is that the powers don’t need to be defined this weekend and can evolve.

And MEC just becomes a 1/room mage power.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kaelten wrote: I've been following but not commenting on the discussion, but here I go, and please forgive my frankness. For context, our team is now running nightmare and considering trying epic soon. Also, I realize that I'm not going to be speaking for anyone out there who's a big fan of MEC builds.

This is pretty bad. It's just not fun for some of us. In the worst case, this could straight up trigger people and prevent them from playing TD at all.

The changes here take a class that is generally underserved in a lot of ways and force them into one specific playstyle to be the most effective at the high-end. This playstyle, self-harm, has both negative connotations out of the game and to some groups, including ours, just isn't fun.

The fact that the -only- way for a Wizard to engage with what should be the epitome of their class's tokens is to engage in such an incredibly controversial game mechanic is not a win for the Wizards amongst us and not for any of us who love True Dungeon.

I wish we would find a way to make the legendary make the class better overall and wouldn't force MEC builds or self-harm mechanics on anyone who would rather abstain.

Please give Wizards a choice and let them keep having fun.

Is there any way to preserve the mechanics in a way that would be appealing to you under a different description?

For example, if you had "mana" equal to your starting hitpoints, and spent "mana" to activate this item, and gained "mana" each time you healed, and lost "mana" each time you were damaged, etc.?

In other words, if we called HP "Mana" for users of these tokens would that change anything about how this is landing for you?

I could see getting away from being powered by HP could be a big win both mechanically and the more thematic side of things.

But that makes me think that there's potentially a whole direction of exploration where you could make INT meaningful by building such a mana pool instead of tying it to HP at all.

You could then introduce more metamagic type functions and use tokens like MEC to unlock their availability similar to how some items imbue psychic powers.

This could be a very interesting idea overall, make Wizard more unique and exciting (at least for some), and set the stage for significant more build variety in the future.

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kaelten wrote: I've been following but not commenting on the discussion, but here I go, and please forgive my frankness. For context, our team is now running nightmare and considering trying epic soon. Also, I realize that I'm not going to be speaking for anyone out there who's a big fan of MEC builds.

This is pretty bad. It's just not fun for some of us. In the worst case, this could straight up trigger people and prevent them from playing TD at all.

The changes here take a class that is generally underserved in a lot of ways and force them into one specific playstyle to be the most effective at the high-end. This playstyle, self-harm, has both negative connotations out of the game and to some groups, including ours, just isn't fun.

The fact that the -only- way for a Wizard to engage with what should be the epitome of their class's tokens is to engage in such an incredibly controversial game mechanic is not a win for the Wizards amongst us and not for any of us who love True Dungeon.

I wish we would find a way to make the legendary make the class better overall and wouldn't force MEC builds or self-harm mechanics on anyone who would rather abstain.

Please give Wizards a choice and let them keep having fun.

Is there any way to preserve the mechanics in a way that would be appealing to you under a different description?

For example, if you had "mana" equal to your starting hitpoints, and spent "mana" to activate this item, and gained "mana" each time you healed, and lost "mana" each time you were damaged, etc.?

In other words, if we called HP "Mana" for users of these tokens would that change anything about how this is landing for you?

Perhaps allow a spell to be sacrificed to generate (or fund another spell) 15 mana per spell level?

I’ve been a big fan of sac a spell to do something cool for a while. It could be a viable alternative I think to using HP, though i would prefer the end user have the option between the two.

Dave Autzen wrote: I see someone has put a Mad Evokers Charm for sale on eBay...

I'm glad the person who was asking $225 three months ago rejected my $200 offer now...