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TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #49

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #50

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #51

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.

Agreed, it would be fine as FA non damage spells. The Buff spells are the key - you’re better off waiting till after combat to heal.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #52

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


Can you throw a link into the character generator website or something?

It's hard to know what to make of 65 damage a turn without seeing the build.

BiS, where boosting damage over saves/ac/flexibility takes priority in the build Monks under VtD rules do ~100 a round on average.

But I also think a similarly geared Fighter should have a melee damage bonus closer to 50 than to 36 (with power attack, but without Bardsong, Runestones, or Potion Bull's Strength)

While I’m not Harlax, here is the “really bad idea” max damage fighter that prioritizes Damage over everything. Site seems to be down at the moment, but I believe it’s a 2H +48 damage build. 1H is a little less.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/f514061b-bd5d-4cb7-a9b8-ce2c5595744e

I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.


OMG

It was late totally missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.


I still go back to the fact that we just recently had a debate on the Eldritch Kilt of Dungeonbane where it was decided that +6 to either St, Dx, or Con was way too overpowered and unacceptable, and it was reduced to just +4 to an Attribute plus 5 HP. Even as it is, the Fighter Relic has three times the attribute bonuses that Dungeonbane got, plus the Reflex saves bonus. If anything, the Fighter Relic still has too much of an attribute bonus at +12 IMO. If the attribute points are added back in, I'd recommend doing it at the Legendary level and not Relic level.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #53

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.


If it's non damage spells at level 1 on the relic it should be the same on the UR for consistency.

Personally I don't see the issue with the Cleric getting a few more damage spells in a card redesign. I don't see them getting access to so many damage spells that a spell damage cleric build is viable. One or two damage spells to throw on rounds they don't need to buff or heal should be fine as long as it's controlled.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #54

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.


If it's non damage spells at level 1 on the relic it should be the same on the UR for consistency.

Personally I don't see the issue with the Cleric getting a few more damage spells in a card redesign. I don't see them getting access to so many damage spells that a spell damage cleric build is viable. One or two damage spells to throw on rounds they don't need to buff or heal should be fine as long as it's controlled.

If they Keep the theme of using a puck, I don’t believe you could slide and cast the damage spell anyway. Multiple controls seem to be in place for that.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #55

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.


If it's non damage spells at level 1 on the relic it should be the same on the UR for consistency.

Personally I don't see the issue with the Cleric getting a few more damage spells in a card redesign. I don't see them getting access to so many damage spells that a spell damage cleric build is viable. One or two damage spells to throw on rounds they don't need to buff or heal should be fine as long as it's controlled.


It only takes one damage spell per level plus Charm of Spell Swapping to make a FA spell damage plus Melee damage Cleric build viable.

I don't think the UR needs nerfing any further. Stacking the UR Free Action at the UR level with lots of additional FA at the transmuted level should be done carefully to make sure it's not causing problems now or down the road.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #56

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I agree with the Clerics that the Relic should include their UR ring effect so they aren't forced to double up to gain the full abilities. I suggest changing the Relic to allow 1st level, 2nd level and Restore Spell as Free Action.

I'd also have the Legendary allow Restore Power as a Free action in addition to the other effects just to give the Clerics the most versatility options.


Yes. Please.

Look at the Bard. Their Legendary lets them do their party support and still participate in other ways through EVERY round of combat. The existing plan for the Cleric Legendary lets them do something similar for 6 rounds total. Adding the UR in would let Clerics go 11 rounds, which is probably enough for them to go through a 3-combat dungeon able to provide support and still contribute to combat in other ways.


If you do something like that, should it just be healing spells that are free action? If the Cleric gets any more damage spells in a future character card change, you might end up with a Charm of Spell Swapping Cleric that does damage spells and melee damage every turn.


I (speaking only for myself) would be fine limiting it to non-damage spells. But the buff spells need to be included.


If it's non damage spells at level 1 on the relic it should be the same on the UR for consistency.

Personally I don't see the issue with the Cleric getting a few more damage spells in a card redesign. I don't see them getting access to so many damage spells that a spell damage cleric build is viable. One or two damage spells to throw on rounds they don't need to buff or heal should be fine as long as it's controlled.


It only takes one damage spell per level plus Charm of Spell Swapping to make a FA spell damage plus Melee damage Cleric build viable.

I don't think the UR needs nerfing any further. Stacking the UR Free Action at the UR level with lots of additional FA at the transmuted level should be done carefully to make sure it's not causing problems now or down the road.


If the concern is CoSS damage spells just make the UR and Relic allow FA non damage spells. If they want to CoSS for damage spells make them burn a standard action for them. Clerics aren't damage dealing spellcasters afterall, it'd make sense thematically that they are fast at buffing and healing but slow at damaging magics.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #57

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


Can you throw a link into the character generator website or something?

It's hard to know what to make of 65 damage a turn without seeing the build.

BiS, where boosting damage over saves/ac/flexibility takes priority in the build Monks under VtD rules do ~100 a round on average.

But I also think a similarly geared Fighter should have a melee damage bonus closer to 50 than to 36 (with power attack, but without Bardsong, Runestones, or Potion Bull's Strength)

While I’m not Harlax, here is the “really bad idea” max damage fighter that prioritizes Damage over everything. Site seems to be down at the moment, but I believe it’s a 2H +48 damage build. 1H is a little less.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/f514061b-bd5d-4cb7-a9b8-ce2c5595744e

I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.


OMG

It was late totally missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.


I still go back to the fact that we just recently had a debate on the Eldritch Kilt of Dungeonbane where it was decided that +6 to either St, Dx, or Con was way too overpowered and unacceptable, and it was reduced to just +4 to an Attribute plus 5 HP. Even as it is, the Fighter Relic has three times the attribute bonuses that Dungeonbane got, plus the Reflex saves bonus. If anything, the Fighter Relic still has too much of an attribute bonus at +12 IMO. If the attribute points are added back in, I'd recommend doing it at the Legendary level and not Relic level.


One of those is for ALL classes, the other is only fighters. So, not the same.
this is not a signature.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #58

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


Can you throw a link into the character generator website or something?

It's hard to know what to make of 65 damage a turn without seeing the build.

BiS, where boosting damage over saves/ac/flexibility takes priority in the build Monks under VtD rules do ~100 a round on average.

But I also think a similarly geared Fighter should have a melee damage bonus closer to 50 than to 36 (with power attack, but without Bardsong, Runestones, or Potion Bull's Strength)

While I’m not Harlax, here is the “really bad idea” max damage fighter that prioritizes Damage over everything. Site seems to be down at the moment, but I believe it’s a 2H +48 damage build. 1H is a little less.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/f514061b-bd5d-4cb7-a9b8-ce2c5595744e

I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.


OMG

It was late totally missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.


I still go back to the fact that we just recently had a debate on the Eldritch Kilt of Dungeonbane where it was decided that +6 to either St, Dx, or Con was way too overpowered and unacceptable, and it was reduced to just +4 to an Attribute plus 5 HP. Even as it is, the Fighter Relic has three times the attribute bonuses that Dungeonbane got, plus the Reflex saves bonus. If anything, the Fighter Relic still has too much of an attribute bonus at +12 IMO. If the attribute points are added back in, I'd recommend doing it at the Legendary level and not Relic level.


You are fixated on the stats, not the outcome. I don’t see any engagement on whether the result is acceptable.

But restoring the Legendary would be ok. I’d still suggest 5/3/4 relic 7/3/4 legendary.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #59

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


Can you throw a link into the character generator website or something?

It's hard to know what to make of 65 damage a turn without seeing the build.

BiS, where boosting damage over saves/ac/flexibility takes priority in the build Monks under VtD rules do ~100 a round on average.

But I also think a similarly geared Fighter should have a melee damage bonus closer to 50 than to 36 (with power attack, but without Bardsong, Runestones, or Potion Bull's Strength)

While I’m not Harlax, here is the “really bad idea” max damage fighter that prioritizes Damage over everything. Site seems to be down at the moment, but I believe it’s a 2H +48 damage build. 1H is a little less.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/f514061b-bd5d-4cb7-a9b8-ce2c5595744e

I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.


OMG

It was late totally missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.


I still go back to the fact that we just recently had a debate on the Eldritch Kilt of Dungeonbane where it was decided that +6 to either St, Dx, or Con was way too overpowered and unacceptable, and it was reduced to just +4 to an Attribute plus 5 HP. Even as it is, the Fighter Relic has three times the attribute bonuses that Dungeonbane got, plus the Reflex saves bonus. If anything, the Fighter Relic still has too much of an attribute bonus at +12 IMO. If the attribute points are added back in, I'd recommend doing it at the Legendary level and not Relic level.


And there we have it. You can’t see the forest for the trees.

You are fixated on the stats, not the outcome. I don’t see any engagement on whether the result is acceptable.


Hopefully we can have these discussions without insults.

I've expressed my thoughts on it, you've expressed yours, I'm fine with Jeff reading all postings and deciding on what to do.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 year 10 months ago #60

I edited my post before I saw your reply.

I’ll also remind you of the difference in cost of materials that will be involved. The kilt was cheap. This will not be.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
The topic has been locked.
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