TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I've played Fighter since 2007 when a frantic guy popped out of the large wooden doors of the Marriott ballroom and asked if I'd like to join his party. I did, and on that run, in the hallway between rooms, I found an uncommon Bastard Sword on the floor that I used for the next four years.

Over the years, my gear has gotten better but I've always stayed a sword and shield Fighter. Today, I use Welfor's and the Blessed Redoubt Shield. I have added EVERY possible maxed-out Str and a fair amount of damage buffs to my build including...

Redoubt Set
Stupendous Pendant
Surtr's
Mithral Gauntlets
Shirt of Blessed Strength
Kilt of the Dungeonbane (Str)
Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Greater Onyx Charm
Rod of Seven Parts Segment 1
Fiendish Charm

Ring of the Eel
Ring of the Drake
Decay Runestone
Rungestone Fitting base with another Decay Runestone
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism

...and still only do an average of 41 pts of damage with melee per round. I run with a great crew who are also maxed-out or close to maxed-out in their classes which means combat lasts 2 rounds on Nightmare if we're really unlucky. Using his Legendary backstab twice with the Viper Strike bonus, our Rogue does at least 100 pts of damage for those two rounds. The Barbarian does a little more. Do I need to even mention the Ranger's damage?

My point is, these other classes have other abilities that put stat bonuses to work. Fighters do not. Even with our new abilities on the Legendary token, we are still at the BOTTOM of the damage pile. If that where you want Fighters to be, then these tokens are just right. If you think Fighters should be closer to the middle, give us the stats back. If you want us on par with Babarians and Rogue, expand our crit to 18-20 with a one-handed melee weapon.

Here are just some of the voices who agree with me. There are many more.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Fiddy wrote: Jeff, please put the Fighters back.

Unless you're also planning to adjust the Fighter card soon in some way to bump them up, the previous iteration does not result in some overpowered build.

Endgame wrote: I concur with giving Fighters back the 1str and 1 Dex they lost.

Harlax wrote: OMG

It was late and I missed the loss of DEX.

I’ll say it again. 5/3/4 relic, 7/3/4 legendary. Throw some meat to the wolves on the relic, fix the legendary.

Or just put the relic back.

Thanks for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Fighter

+1. The fighters debated the stats endlessly and I do not believe they are in a "broken" place before this reduction. Granting power attack at the legendary while simultaneously removing stats seems to work against each other.

Just for clarification, I wasn't proposing removing stats at the Legendary Level. I think the Relic is overpowered, but if the Legendary is appropriately powered then any stat reductions at the Relic level could be added back in at the Legendary level.

Totally cool with that.

Agreed, but that's because we stopped while we were ahead.

I think we stopped lobbying because we thought we were done. If we had more time to open up design on the legendary, I'd suggest considering having the 19-20 move to 18-20 or go to x3 (x4 for DF on 20). I also suggest allowing power attack in increments of 5, so it scales with level and future hit increases, but this can be tweaked after the token sheet submission.

Jeff, appreciate all you do and getting pulled in 12 different directions. The wizards appreciate the clear direction given at the top of the MEC discussion. I think it would be nice if Fighters understood your perspective where they fall in TD role. "Sword and a board" is fine, but it is disappointing to be lower half in damage without anything unique to add to the party. Perhaps the card redesign will address this.

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote: Personally I would rather just see a statement that fighters will get more stats on the card redesign we are apperntly starting next week. That would help all fighters not just the top end who are around this year to get the legendaries.

Also for the cleric relic is it just 2nd level spells or upto second level? Never sure given how things are compressed to fit on tokens.

P.s. Also how wondering if the str from the relic neck didn't so much disappear as move to the quite possibly bis death knight armor along with the assumption top end warriors would wear both.

Top end Warrior. No one with the redoubt set is going to do that. Give up 2 sTR to Gain 2 STR?

If that is the rationale , why did DEX change.

Redoubt set is +2 STR, +5 HP, and lots of AC, and we all know how fighters feel about AC. Even with 3 legendary pieces that’s what you get.

Death Knight armor and Crown of Might Is already effectively +4 to STR on 2 URs.

Then you get to choose for melee offhand between a:
Rare +2 to damage melee
Rare +2 to hit in melee
UR +2 to STR
With the fighter relic, Any shield ranging from 1-7 AC conveying an equivalent Reflex bonus.

Alternatively, you can drop crown of might, and wear any other head slot item while keeping your +2 STR the redoubt set used to give you.

Redoubt set is no longer BiS with Death knight armor in print for melee types who can use it - unless they prize AC and//or the +5 hp.

I think this is a good thing. Unless folks want the AC bonus of Redoubt to be the standard forever.

I don’t play a fighter, but reading the forums it sounds like fighters want to move away from as much AC as they have for more damage and that implies moving on from Redoubt.

I don’t know about “forever” - but I would like it if the only transmutable armor was the top of the armor food chain for more than 3 years-5 years.

Redoubt should remain the high ac option, probably the top ac bookend for all time.

I don’t see how 9ac and 2str changes anything in armor. If you wanted damage, you probably fit powered plate, brawlers mug, and helm of the boar

If you didn’t care about str and ac, and want hp, you have already picked up the lucky set.

If you want best AC, Str, and HP, nothing has changed.

The life span of tokens is consideration. Eventually things will be eclipsed, even legendaries

But a change that make it difficult to use a legendary that is 2 years old and the relic for which was still craftable less than a year ago? Or the Redoubt set which is 2 years old and whose relic was still craftable less than a year ago?

Can you rephrase in terms of the tokens I’m referencing please? I’m not following at all, because there are non redoubt options for armor, shield and helm that give more str than redoubt at the cost of ac. There are armor, offhand, and head options that yield more +damage. This token (Death Armor) changes none of those things, outside of being a UR instead of rare.

I was actually responding to one of the pots you quoted. I'll make that clearer with an edit.

To make it simple, this is the statement I was referring to:

I don’t know about “forever” - but I would like it if the only transmutable armor was the top of the armor food chain for more than 3 years-5 years.

I would also put the Strength and Dex back to 7 and 3, as previously, I have used Stupendous Pendant in the neck slot, and that, due to the odd stats the token gave, made my strength and dex even. With the current token as is, I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that. As a fighter main, I was really looking forward to crafting my first legendary, and the stat changes seem underwhelming.

Fighters are one of the more simplistic classes, but they are supposed to be great at combat. That being said, it seems like other classes are able to stack damage easier than fighters nowadays, and I don't really see the reasons behind nerfing the stats on this one.

After seeing the update mad evoker charm, I request that the relic & legendary wizard item allow more chances to channel, and the other mage powers trigger of channeling just like the free action on MEC.

Ben Krupa wrote: I would also put the Strength and Dex back to 7 and 3, as previously, I have used Stupendous Pendant in the neck slot, and that, due to the odd stats the token gave, made my strength and dex even. With the current token as is, I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that. As a fighter main, I was really looking forward to crafting my first legendary, and the stat changes seem underwhelming.

Fighters are one of the more simplistic classes, but they are supposed to be great at combat. That being said, it seems like other classes are able to stack damage easier than fighters nowadays, and I don't really see the reasons behind nerfing the stats on this one.

Harlax wrote:

Ben Krupa wrote: I would also put the Strength and Dex back to 7 and 3, as previously, I have used Stupendous Pendant in the neck slot, and that, due to the odd stats the token gave, made my strength and dex even. With the current token as is, I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that. As a fighter main, I was really looking forward to crafting my first legendary, and the stat changes seem underwhelming.

Fighters are one of the more simplistic classes, but they are supposed to be great at combat. That being said, it seems like other classes are able to stack damage easier than fighters nowadays, and I don't really see the reasons behind nerfing the stats on this one.

+1!

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Ben Krupa wrote: I would also put the Strength and Dex back to 7 and 3, as previously, I have used Stupendous Pendant in the neck slot, and that, due to the odd stats the token gave, made my strength and dex even. With the current token as is, I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that. As a fighter main, I was really looking forward to crafting my first legendary, and the stat changes seem underwhelming.

Fighters are one of the more simplistic classes, but they are supposed to be great at combat. That being said, it seems like other classes are able to stack damage easier than fighters nowadays, and I don't really see the reasons behind nerfing the stats on this one.

+1!

+2

I would rather reduce the CON, or if you have to STR and CON and then back on the Legendary

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Ben Krupa wrote: I would also put the Strength and Dex back to 7 and 3, as previously, I have used Stupendous Pendant in the neck slot, and that, due to the odd stats the token gave, made my strength and dex even. With the current token as is, I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that. As a fighter main, I was really looking forward to crafting my first legendary, and the stat changes seem underwhelming.

Fighters are one of the more simplistic classes, but they are supposed to be great at combat. That being said, it seems like other classes are able to stack damage easier than fighters nowadays, and I don't really see the reasons behind nerfing the stats on this one.

+1!

Pretty please?

(Rolls Persuasion Check)

Thanks all! I tweaked the Fighter and Cleric stuff up a bit. I think you will be happy.

We will publish the contact sheets later tonight! If you do find some kind of bad typo let me know. I can change an image...but it won't be a snap.

Lots more to do! Have a good night...and do a little "thank god Jeff is done" dance.

Music:

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks all! I tweaked the Fighter and Cleric stuff up a bit. I think you will be happy.

We will publish the contact sheets later tonight! If you do find some kind of bad typo let me know. I can change an image...but it won't be a snap.

Lots more to do! Have a good night...and do a little "thank god Jeff is done" dance.

Music:

And now on to the the recipes. Fight!


Thanks again.

Round 2: Fight!