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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #121

Justice wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


Where are you getting all these slides from?


Also if a fighter is skilled at sliding there is a chance at getting a crit. Lot harder to do honestly than in VTD.

Wizards are an auto hit

In my observations as a fighter I rarely get to slide first. Often behind the ranger/monk/rogue so there is usually a minefield to worry about.

It’s quite a stretch to connect the two cases


tokendb.com/token/figurine-of-power-panther/

Also, in "real" TD, I generally recommend human fighter sliding first, to determine board speed, followed by whomever needs the most help "to hit"

Our monk is like +25 to hit, so he often goes last.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #122

Are people saying that the Human fighter reslide is a second attack?


The ability on the card says the result of the second slide must be accepted even if the first one was better. It’s a do over.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #123

Harlax wrote: Are people saying that the Human fighter reslide is a second attack?


The ability on the card says the result of the second slide must be accepted even if the first one was better. It’s a do over.


Nope. But from a statistics perspective it's an increase in hit/crit chance

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #124

Justice wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


Where are you getting all these slides from?


Human fighter has a 1/room reslide.

Both can equip a 1/game figurine that grants a reslide.

Also if a fighter is skilled at sliding there is a chance at getting a crit. Lot harder to do honestly than in VTD.


Agreed.

Wizards are an auto hit


Except when they are not.

In my observations as a fighter I rarely get to slide first. Often behind the ranger/monk/rogue so there is usually a minefield to worry about.

It’s quite a stretch to connect the two cases


Why exactly?

Mike posted analysis where given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room and the existence of a 40 damage point AoE spell with no slide) that two Wizards could do ~500 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

I'm pointing out that given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room the potential to hit a 19+ on 3 tries for the Human Fighter and 2 tries for the Dwarf Fighter) that two Figthers could do ~440-550 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

Since the crit thing seems to be bugging you, let me expand the analysis to consider two fighters and what their average result in VTD would be instead of a best case scenario result:

Human fighter with 2 reslides, who reslides until they get crit or are out of reslides, 19+ crit range, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of critting: 48.8%
Odds of hitting: 44.8%

Dward Fighter with 1 reslide, who reslides until they get any kind of crit, who triple crits on a 20, crits on 19, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of triple critting: 18%
Odds of double critting: 18%
Odds of hitting: 56%

Total expected damage against 2 melee reachable targets by these fighters on the round they use their reslides:

HF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.448 hit chance +2*.488 crit chance) = 156.64
DF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.56 hit chance + 2*.18 crit chance + 3*.18 triple crit chance) = 160.6

Combined expected damage from these two Fighters in the round where they reslide: 317.24
Damage if they both double crit (odds of this are ~1 in 11): 440
Damage if the HF crits and DF triple crits (odds of this are also ~1 in 11): 550

Now - it might not be OK for two Wizards to deal ~500 damage among two monsters in a round 1/game by setting themselves to 1 HP. In fact I think it's probably not.

But if it's not we really have to think of if it's OK for two fighters to deal ~317 damage on average among two monsters in a round 1/game by... being fighters and using their FoP Panther. (While having a ~1/6 shot to do 440 or more, and a ~1/11 shot to do 550).

By the way - I'm not picking on Fighters here - if we go to the single target case, I would switch the focus of my comparison to an crit-on-a-hit Furious Barbarian.

To be clear: I don't want any class to be able to reliably one shot bosses if they are playing a reasonable difficulty. If the currently being-designed Wizard transmutes and Wizard character card would allow that, I'd argue against it.

But I think it's important to:

A. Consider numbers in the relevant context of what other classes can do.

B. Not over index on 1/game capabilities (to the extent that they don't lead to 1-shotting, which isn't fun for many people). A damage focused class that is using a ton of their resources including multiple 1/game abilities should deal more than another class doing its 'just another day in the office' thing.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #125

maybe we should just, I dunno, stop analyzing this whole 1/game massive overall damage possibility with 4 characters integrating together to deal large damage?

Is it really so bad for a Wizard and a Cleric together to deal 250 damage 2 or 3 times over a game?

Because thats REALLY whats happening. It's not just the Wizards needed to make these big attacks unless they die immediately after

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #126

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Justice wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


Where are you getting all these slides from?


Human fighter has a 1/room reslide.

Both can equip a 1/game figurine that grants a reslide.

Also if a fighter is skilled at sliding there is a chance at getting a crit. Lot harder to do honestly than in VTD.


Agreed.

Wizards are an auto hit


Except when they are not.

In my observations as a fighter I rarely get to slide first. Often behind the ranger/monk/rogue so there is usually a minefield to worry about.

It’s quite a stretch to connect the two cases


Why exactly?

Mike posted analysis where given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room and the existence of a 40 damage point AoE spell with no slide) that two Wizards could do ~500 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

I'm pointing out that given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room the potential to hit a 19+ on 3 tries for the Human Fighter and 2 tries for the Dwarf Fighter) that two Figthers could do ~440-550 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

Since the crit thing seems to be bugging you, let me expand the fighters to an average result instead of a best case scenario result:

Human fighter with 2 reslides, who reslides until they get crit or are out of reslides, 19+ crit range, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of critting: 48.8%
Odds of hitting: 44.8%

Dward Fighter with 1 reslide, who reslides until they get any kind of crit, who triple crits on a 20, crits on 19, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of triple critting: 18%
Odds of double critting: 18%
Odds of hitting: 56%

Total expected damage against 2 melee reachable targets by these fighters on the round they use their reslides:

HF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.448 hit chance +2*.488 crit chance) = 156.64
DF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.56 hit chance + 2*.18 crit chance + 3*.18 triple crit chance) = 160.6

Combined expected damage from these two Fighters in the round where they reslide: 317.24
Damage if they both double crit (odds of this are ~1 in 11): 440
Damage if the HF crits and DF triple crits (odds of this are also ~1 in 11): 550

Now - it might not be OK for two Wizards to deal ~500 damage among two monsters in a round 1/game by setting themselves to 1 HP. In fact I think it's probably not.

But if it's not we really have to think of if it's OK for two fighters to ~317 damage among two monsters in a round 1/game by... being fighters and using their FoP Panther. (While having a ~1/6 shot to do 440 or more, and a ~1/11 shot to do 550).

By the way - I'm not picking on Fighters here - if we go to the single target case, I would switch the focus of my comparison to an crit-on-a-hut Furious Barbarian.


Until we see that actual Wizard cards and the more detailed rules for the Legendary I am hesitant to comment, but with that said I have a question:

Should we be comparing a 1/game fighter combo that may or may not crit with a Wizard who can reset to full power with either an item (Gem of Last Hope) or a Cleric ability and do it again?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #127

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Justice wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.


That's right. The ability of Human Fighter to slide 3 times in one combat, and DF to slide twice was intended to improve the plausibility of them both getting 19+.


Where are you getting all these slides from?


Human fighter has a 1/room reslide.

Both can equip a 1/game figurine that grants a reslide.

Also if a fighter is skilled at sliding there is a chance at getting a crit. Lot harder to do honestly than in VTD.


Agreed.

Wizards are an auto hit


Except when they are not.

In my observations as a fighter I rarely get to slide first. Often behind the ranger/monk/rogue so there is usually a minefield to worry about.

It’s quite a stretch to connect the two cases


Why exactly?

Mike posted analysis where given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room and the existence of a 40 damage point AoE spell with no slide) that two Wizards could do ~500 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

I'm pointing out that given a bunch of factors (including a multi-target room the potential to hit a 19+ on 3 tries for the Human Fighter and 2 tries for the Dwarf Fighter) that two Figthers could do ~440-550 damage in 1 round with lots of token support.

Since the crit thing seems to be bugging you, let me expand the fighters to an average result instead of a best case scenario result:

Human fighter with 2 reslides, who reslides until they get crit or are out of reslides, 19+ crit range, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of critting: 48.8%
Odds of hitting: 44.8%

Dward Fighter with 1 reslide, who reslides until they get any kind of crit, who triple crits on a 20, crits on 19, VTD rules, hits on a 12+, average damage 55:

Odds of triple critting: 18%
Odds of double critting: 18%
Odds of hitting: 56%

Total expected damage against 2 melee reachable targets by these fighters on the round they use their reslides:

HF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.448 hit chance +2*.488 crit chance) = 156.64
DF: 2 monsters*55 avg damage*(.56 hit chance + 2*.18 crit chance + 3*.18 triple crit chance) = 160.6

Combined expected damage from these two Fighters in the round where they reslide: 317.24
Damage if they both double crit (odds of this are ~1 in 11): 440
Damage if the HF crits and DF triple crits (odds of this are also ~1 in 11): 550

Now - it might not be OK for two Wizards to deal ~500 damage among two monsters in a round 1/game by setting themselves to 1 HP. In fact I think it's probably not.

But if it's not we really have to think of if it's OK for two fighters to ~317 damage among two monsters in a round 1/game by... being fighters and using their FoP Panther. (While having a ~1/6 shot to do 440 or more, and a ~1/11 shot to do 550).

By the way - I'm not picking on Fighters here - if we go to the single target case, I would switch the focus of my comparison to an crit-on-a-hut Furious Barbarian.


Until we see that actual Wizard cards and the more detailed rules for the Legendary I am hesitant to comment, but with that said I have a question:

Should we be comparing a 1/game fighter combo that may or may not crit with a Wizard who can reset to full power with either an item (Gem of Last Hope) or a Cleric ability and do it again?


You mean a fighter ability that could be restored by the Cleric with Restore Power?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #128

Sliding is different than VTD die rolling. In same cases it may be impractical to get two pucks on crit zones.

And just like casters who skip skill checks to conserve time, would you really want to see fighters retake the time to slide 5 times to do two attacks. Maybe in a really tightly coordinated groups
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #129

OrionW wrote:
...snip...

Until we see that actual Wizard cards and the more detailed rules for the Legendary I am hesitant to comment, but with that said I have a question:

Should we be comparing a 1/game fighter combo that may or may not crit with a Wizard who can reset to full power with either an item (Gem of Last Hope) or a Cleric ability and do it again?


The analysis that two Wizards can do 500 damage in one round to two monsters (assuming the existence of a 40 point non-slide AoE spell) relied on:
1. Both Wizards exhausting a 1/game Ring of Spell Storing.
2. Both Wizard exhausting a 1/game cast of the theoretical 40 point non-slide AoE spell.

So both combos are 1/game.

The Fighter combo, after this, loses very little, they can keep doing this all day long and go down to 70% hit 20% crit on the HF (except for the new rooms where they can reslide 1/room for better values), and 70% hit, 10% crit, 10% triple crit on the DF.

The Wizards, on the other hand are now at 1 HP, don't have a way to cast 2 spells in a round, and need a to either start getting Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise to do a less effective burst with only 1 spell cast a second time. They also either need to be burning ~$30 consumables that require a standard action to apply, or they need full coordination from cleric and/or druid classes as well to recharge their HP.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #130

You mean a fighter ability that could be restored by the Cleric with Restore Power?



What fighter power are you referring to? Weapon Specialization?

Just because you can use a Restore Power on an ability doesn't mean that you should LOL

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #131

Analysis should likely never average in crit damage based on crit percent , as the result is binary- a slide either crits or it doesn’t - it should be expressed as 2 values. First the more likely result (generally the non crit), then likely result.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 3 years 10 months ago #132

Justice wrote:

You mean a fighter ability that could be restored by the Cleric with Restore Power?



What fighter power are you referring to? Weapon Specialization?

Just because you can use a Restore Power on an ability doesn't mean that you should LOL


Not arguing that you SHOULD just saying that it's not valid comparison because one uses a 1/game effect and the other (uses 2 one/game effects) does not is a bad thing to use as a claim

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