TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Endgame wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Allen John wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The problem you are going to see removing bonus from the second puck is asking Rangers and Monks to accept a loss of 30+ damage per turn.

That doesn't seem like something they will be willing to take lightly

At least with Rangers, I've come around to thinking the problem is that it's too easy to hit, not that the hits do too much damage. The swings are supposed to be erratic, but with the +hit numbers we can reach, it's possible to reach a situation where you almost have to try to miss.

I'd argue that the Ranger double-slide needs some sort of penalty to hit, but I have no idea what could possibly balance it across multiple difficulties.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Ok, serious question here.

How does discussing hypothetical damage outputs on classes where powers aren't defined and class cards are about to be re-done actually help anything?

Why does damage output of one class vs. another matter at all? If you want to be the best damage dealer there is, play Monk (or soon, Wizard). It is a team game. If I'm playing Paladin, I know that my guarding the wizards often means we don't get attacked, leaving them to channel HP into spells.

If we kill the monster in 1 or 2 rounds, we all participated. Are there bragging rights in some parties that we just don't have in mine? That seems kind of annoying honestly.

If someone is overgeared for their difficulty level and doesn't tone it down, that would take a LOT of the fun out of it for me.

I guess people (this is not aimed at any one person) just like the debate?

Anyhow /rant

Maybe it's different at Epic level, but in my experience I can't recall the last time any of us sliders even cared what the casters were casting, let alone how much damage they were doing. They could be off playing canasta with the DM for all we care.

“Apply STR/2 bonus to hit to each slider, apply STR bonus to damage to each slider”
Scales perfectly as tokens do.

Harder to calculate in the dungeon though.

The following suggestion changes nothing with the core rules, but just adjusts the monk. Perhaps it doesn’t go far enough, but it’s also less disruptive.

2nd ed DnD has a penalty for using 2 weapons. Maybe Adapt it to TD?

For monk, this is pretty easy to do without disrupting the new player experience.

2 weapon style - -2 to hit for sliding 2 pucks

Change base monk str to 9, or even 7.

Add rule: fists of steel. Monk gains +4 hit and +2 damage when using empty pucks.

Eventually it makes sense to swap from fists to weapons, but it would take a serious chunk out of monk base +hit (it’s -5 hit / -3 damage from where we are now)

This moves the BIS monk build in my phone from +23 hit to +18, which may have a real impact on damage due to misses.

It’s really easy to write on the party card. In the melee to hit bonus, you list the total calculated with STR/2 for Monk/Ranger and the other way for everyone else. And then every combat DM reads the party card. Or you address the problem with damage instead of to hit.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

Mike Steele wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

No matter what the eventual solution, hopefully it avoids having the DMs need to do more math than they already do.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

No matter what the eventual solution, hopefully it avoids having the DMs need to do more math than they already do.

Not only the DMs, but also the coaches. I can’t imagine trying to figure out all the bonuses for a token dumper (10 or more boosters dumped on the table, asking the coach to help build a character) as it is , let alone if they have to do separate math for monks and rangers based on STR vs +Melee.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

No matter what the eventual solution, hopefully it avoids having the DMs need to do more math than they already do.

Maybe just a box that says 2 handed damage bonus and single weapon bonus damage per hit? It could probably be worded better.

Mike Steele wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

The situation I am thinking of is more of a corner case: the Monk or Ranger uses two different weapons and for some reason or another the monster has resistance to the damage type of one weapon but not the other (ie Bracer of Asp vs open fist/no token).

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Come to think of it: when spellcasters have a spell that hits multiple targets and equip +damage tokens, it is added to a pool of damage to divide among all targets however they wish.

Extending this to Ranger/Monk, tokens that add flat damage should add to a pool of damage that can be divided between their sliders however they wish. That then only leaves STR-boosting for abuse, which can be resolved with something like STR x1 for each puck when sliding 2 pucks, STR x1.5 when sliding 1H weapon and sliding only 1 puck, STR x2 when sliding 2H weapon and sliding only 1 puck (or for simplicity drop the 1.5 and just do 1x for 2 pucks or 2x for 1 puck). Seems like a pretty clean way to resolve the damage and STR boosting gulf between 2 pucks and 1 puck while following the system used for spellcasters.

Taking the entire damage bonus and letting the Monk & Ranger use that as a pool to divide between their two attack tokens would work. That's essentially the same as applying the entire thing to the best slide of the two. You could have a general rule that all melee and ranged damage for a character are treated as a pool like bonus spell damage, and divided between any successful hits for the character. For single puck characters of course, that's 100% on the single puck.

Isn't it more realistic that the pool of damage is split in half for each weapon...to add it the weapon has to hit since your combined strength comes from both arms...therefore of your offhand weapon doesnt hit you lose half of your strength bonus.

You are right, that is more realistic. I am thinking that the ability to move the entire bonus damage amount to the slider that has the best hit might soften the blow a bit of losing full damage bonus on both tokens for Monk & Ranger. It is probably easier for the DM also than dividing by two and adding to each weapon slider.

I can't think of a scenario where it is better for the Monk or Ranger to divide the bonus melee or ranged damage between the two sliders instead of putting all of it on the best slide, but maybe I'm overlooking a scenario.

The situation I am thinking of is more of a corner case: the Monk or Ranger uses two different weapons and for some reason or another the monster has resistance to the damage type of one weapon but not the other (ie Bracer of Asp vs open fist/no token).

Even in that case, wouldn't the Monk or Ranger want to shift all the bonus damage to the weapon that the monster has no resistance to? If you're saying the Ranger and Monk should be able to choose which weapon to put all the bonus damage on instead of just making it the one with the highest "to hit" roll/slide, I can see that.

I like how despite the fact that there isn't an actual problem, all of the people continue to carry on this conversation as if there is. If you really believe that the ranger and the monk are the best characters then all of you trying to solve this should probably just play those classes. Because seriously, you don't understand the game if you think the 2 handed attackers are a problem. I mean seriously, read these posts, all of your concerns have been answered and you just keep beating your heads against the wall trying to nerf classes you apparently dislike. i think all the rogue and paladin players should go after the fighters and barbarians next because their damage output far exceeds that of rogues, clerics, and paladins. if your argument is that rangers and monks can only use half their strength because they are using one hand then i hate to tell you that any vcass not using a 2 handed weapon needs to be similarly punished.

I find it fascinating how many of you railing against rangers and monks as suddenly the problem are silent when we make tokens that negate ranged attacks and critical hit immunities. And you continue to have no response for the fact that monks have the hardest slides in the game by a country mile. you choose to instead nerf them to take away the reward for mastering those difficult sliding rules. here is a fact for you then. your entire argument is that it is unfair that they have more damage potential than other characters then simply make all tokens and classes the exact same.

solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?