TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

One solution to Power Creep: Non-Legendary tokens cannot be used for more than 10 years after printing. This seems reasonable to me, opens up the design space a lot more, makes reprints more of a thing (maybe reprints allow trade-ins?), but crashes the secondary market which is bad.

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

One solution to Power Creep: Non-Legendary tokens cannot be used for more than 10 years after printing. This seems reasonable to me, opens up the design space a lot more, makes reprints more of a thing (maybe reprints allow trade-ins?), but crashes the secondary market which is bad.

Obsoleting tokens by year is a VERY bad idea in a game where an UR token has a starting price of $100, the average Relic is $400, relics are never reprinted.

Limiting the only tokens "safe" from aging out of use is $1000+ each Legendary tokens sends a very strong message to non legendary players (99.9% of players) that the game is not designed for them, but for the elite 0.1% of players who craft Legendary tokens.

That's not a good design decision for a game you can play every day, it's significantly worse for a game you can play only about once every 3 months and only at specific locations across the USA.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

One solution to Power Creep: Non-Legendary tokens cannot be used for more than 10 years after printing. This seems reasonable to me, opens up the design space a lot more, makes reprints more of a thing (maybe reprints allow trade-ins?), but crashes the secondary market which is bad.

Obsoleting tokens by year is a VERY bad idea in a game where an UR token has a starting price of $100, the average Relic is $400, relics are never reprinted.

Limiting the only tokens "safe" from aging out of use is $1000+ each Legendary tokens sends a very strong message to non legendary players (99.9% of players) that the game is not designed for them, but for the elite 0.1% of players who craft Legendary tokens.

That's not a good design decision for a game you can play every day, it's significantly worse for a game you can play only about once every 3 months and only at specific locations across the USA.

I agree with you that this is not a great solution, but it is similar to what MTG does (a collectable game that works to maintain balance).
magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/banned-restricted

Effectively this is already going to happen with the redoubt set which doesn't really match the needs of the game and Wizard tokens that won't work well with the new meta.

In the current system, In order to sell new tokens to the existing user base the power level needs to increase slightly over time. I don't see a way not to have power creep and keep old tokens.

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

One solution to Power Creep: Non-Legendary tokens cannot be used for more than 10 years after printing. This seems reasonable to me, opens up the design space a lot more, makes reprints more of a thing (maybe reprints allow trade-ins?), but crashes the secondary market which is bad.

I think the solution to creep is

1) decide on how each class is desired to play - ex: its ok for monks to do most melee damage... or it’s not and changes need to be made. This is 1/6 done I believe since we know the desire for wizards to be top damage dealers ( though even that could be nebulous, such as, are A they supposed to do the most damage factoring in crits, or just can other classes exceed wizards with crits)

2) bookend attributes / scores by rarity.
Ex: no rare armor shall exceed defenders set for AC. No rare ring shall exceed +3 2H melee damage. No legendary ring may exceed +5 focus.

The area between book ends is the design space for new tokens, and keeps an expected progression. Like no drawback +2 str rare gloves -> No drawback +4 str UR gloves -> +5 str no drawback Relic gloves -> +6 str no drawback legendary gloves.

Note, this is pretty well in place for rare and under. UR is in a fairly good place too. Relic and legendary is still being “built out” so to speak.

3) identify and scale difficulty to min and max desired gear levels.

Ex:
normal: 10 pack to all slots covered with mix of uncommon to rare

Hardcore: Half rare 4th level to 5th level with 3-4 more URs

Nightmare: half UR to a mostly UR with a few relics

Epic many relics to mostly BIS

4) reprint! Just keep cycling some of the less available stuff as time goes on. Already being done, but maybe a larger portion of each set could contain reprints.

Edit - forgot a big one (!)
5) no new slots, cap expanded slots, Limit slot traders

Every new slot will create more creep at every rarity level. The simple solution is no new slots.

Slot expanders are in the same boat, as they trade one slot for multiple of another. Likely no new expanders should be made, but if they are, they should be limited to slots already used for expanders - ex, neck, wrist, and ear.

Slot traders should also be limited unless it’s a high value slot trading down to a lower slot. Ex, trading a neck slot for another head is much better than trading an ioun stone for a neck.

I don’t think there has been tremendous creep at the rare level, because TPTB have been doing a good job of capping rare power level below UR. BIS is creeping because that design space is still in bl development and still building bookends.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

So again, your solution is to nerf 2 classes and you really believe that your discussion is about power creep?

Endgame wrote: 4) reprint! Just keep cycling some of the less available stuff as time goes on. Already being done, but maybe a larger portion of each set could contain reprints.

I think there are enough years of tokens out there now that this is very feasible. This also gives TPTB a chance to "refresh" old tokens which may need adjustments. So far, this has been done to adjust tokens downward (LoDS, anyone), but could be done to adjust tokens upward (Charm of the Cabal, anyone)?

archmage78 wrote: So again, your solution is to nerf 2 classes and you really believe that your discussion is about power creep?

I'm still curious to hear your definition of power creep if you'd care to share it.

forgot a big one (!)
5) no new slots, cap expanded slots, Limit slot traders

Every new slot will create more creep at every rarity level. The simple solution is no new slots.

Slot expanders are in the same boat, as they trade one slot for multiple of another. Likely no new expanders should be made, but if they are, they should be limited to slots already used for expanders - ex, neck, wrist, and ear.

Slot traders should also be limited unless it’s a high value slot trading down to a lower slot. Ex, trading a neck slot for another head is much better than trading an ioun stone for a neck.

I’ve edited this back into the previous post

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

No, going after 2 classes is not dealing with power creep. I'm sorry that you don't understand that. First, you aren't discussing power creep, you are attacking 2 classes because their damage potential is higher than yours... well thats great, thats the point of choosing to have to use 2 hands in combat, the point of having lower AC, of making it more difficult on yourself. If a monk can do their slides correctly and still hit then he or she should be rewarded with more damage. And for the millionth time, if you are going to attack 2 classes for doing more damage than you, what about rogue players who even with sneak attack damage are still watching the barbarian do 20 or 30 points more damage. No, your conversation is people thinking it is unfair that the ranger and monk have damage potential not a discussion about power creep. It is hidden under a veil but read the posts.

So yes, solve real problems like power creep, don't try to nerf 2 classes you don't like.

archmage78 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

While it definitely impacts primarily these two classes, I see it more as having a consistent rule across all the classes. Something like "bonus melee or ranged combat damage can only be applied to one slid token per round. If a player's character hits with more than one melee or ranged slid attack in a round, they get to decide which slid attack to apply the bonus damage to".

So again, your solution is to nerf 2 classes and you really believe that your discussion is about power creep?

I'm not sure I ever said that this particular decision is entirely about power creep. It's partially about power creep, because every token that increases melee damage potentially gives twice as big of an increase to Rangers and Monks as it does to single token sliding classes. I do think these two classes need to be nerfed, because the advantage of being able to potentially double the damage bonuses gets more and more unbalancing every year. And it does impact other classes. Since the goal is to have Wizards deal the most damage, having Monks and Rangers get double damage bonuses increases the amount of power creep Wizards have to get to get on top and stay on top.

archmage78 wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

No, going after 2 classes is not dealing with power creep. I'm sorry that you don't understand that. First, you aren't discussing power creep, you are attacking 2 classes because their damage potential is higher than yours... well thats great, thats the point of choosing to have to use 2 hands in combat, the point of having lower AC, of making it more difficult on yourself. If a monk can do their slides correctly and still hit then he or she should be rewarded with more damage. And for the millionth time, if you are going to attack 2 classes for doing more damage than you, what about rogue players who even with sneak attack damage are still watching the barbarian do 20 or 30 points more damage. No, your conversation is people thinking it is unfair that the ranger and monk have damage potential not a discussion about power creep. It is hidden under a veil but read the posts.

So yes, solve real problems like power creep, don't try to nerf 2 classes you don't like.

Don't worry about what people are saying about Monk and Ranger. I want to hear what your definition of power creep is.