TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Question - I didn't see the answer to this in the Player's Handbook (I probably just missed it), but I figure the Wizard players would know. When a Wizard casts Lightning Storm which damages all monsters, is the Bonus Spell Damage (like from Focus tokens) added to the damage each monster takes, or is it a pool divided among all the monsters?

Pool

Thanks! I knew the MEC damage was a pool, I wasn't sure of the rest.

Mad evoker use to double base damage plus skill check before it was chsnged....base was dealt to all monsters plus spell damage from focus items was a pool to be dealt. Now this will probably change with the revisions.

Old MeC hasn’t doubled base damage to all monsters for years (if ever - it’s not clear if the clarification on that point a few years back was a change in function or a clarification on how it was always supposed to work).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Question - I didn't see the answer to this in the Player's Handbook (I probably just missed it), but I figure the Wizard players would know. When a Wizard casts Lightning Storm which damages all monsters, is the Bonus Spell Damage (like from Focus tokens) added to the damage each monster takes, or is it a pool divided among all the monsters?

Pool

Thanks! I knew the MEC damage was a pool, I wasn't sure of the rest.

Mad evoker use to double base damage plus skill check before it was chsnged....base was dealt to all monsters plus spell damage from focus items was a pool to be dealt. Now this will probably change with the revisions.

Old MeC hasn’t doubled base damage to all monsters for years (if ever - it’s not clear if the clarification on the point was a change or a clarification on how it was always supposed to work).

It's how it was always supposed to work.

Looking at my app, I have an Elf Wizard build that can get to 145hp, but spell damage is only 8.

I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discussed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some don't have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc..


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with Legendary Viv's can power attack can have say 55 melee damage including the average damage on their weapon damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 19+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable with melee/physical ranged up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way - rather than doing a bunch of math assuming the existence of a 40 point AoE non slide spell that hasn't yet been published.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to a large relative difference between the damage output of a Wizard class and of other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying: “Wow - that’s a lot - it needs to be less!!!”

I think we would be making better progress.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

I prefer to think of it as simply the Cleric channeling the power of Pelor through two Wizard vessels.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

I hit submit too early and then continued editing.

My OP now has an example of two similarly geared fighters doing 440-550 damage in one round - without going to 1 HP.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

It won’t be hard to run the numbers. Channel fireball looks like it will be very accessible - you won’t need lots of access to +spell damage when most of the damage comes from HP. I just cooked up a 75hp Wizard using URs like tavernbane and nothing from the 2021 set, and got to +15 spell damage (and Earcuff of inspiration factored as +0 damage) using 12 URs, while including linked shirt and key of healing. Could likely trim the build down further to use less UR while having more HP both from the changes as well as factoring in 2021 set.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

As for it being precedented or not - summing up the actions of two classes and then throwing out a number is not common.

It’s easy to skim what you’re saying and takeaway:

”A wizard can do 500 damage a round.”

When what you are actually showing is:

“In the ~one dungeon room in six that has two monsters: two different players can do 250 damage each in one round - under the assumption that the redesigned wizard card (that hasn’t yet been published) includes a 40 damage AoE spell that doesn't require a slide, and by exhausting multiple 1/game abilities, and by reducing themselves to 1 hp.”


For the record - I think no class should routinely be able to one shot end bosses when playing at a reasonable difficulty for their equipped tokens.

I’m also pretty confident TPTB won’t allow effects that allow a single character to one shot end bosses when playing at a reasonable difficulty relative to their equipped tokens.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

I prefer to think of it as simply the Cleric channeling the power of Pelor through two Wizard vessels.

The Cleric doesn't even enter into the analysis until you expand past the first turn. If you use the 110 HP Wizard build mentioned in this thread:

Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 109 points, for 184 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 259 points of damage to one monster in the first turn, with an additional 80 to all other monsters.

In the final room of Infernal Redoubt, the two Wizards combined in the first round could kill the 500 HP Blackthorn and do another 160 of the 400 HP to the Mind Slayer. That is 339 points of damage each in the first round of combat, without any actions by any other character class.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.

Keep in mind, your basing your fighter Damage Numbers on 2 crits, neither of which is guaranteed. We should run the numbers considering no one gets crits - neither the wizard nor the sliders. Also factor non ideal attack conditions - target monster is flying, for example.

Adam Guay wrote: Everyone is worried about what a wizard can do by using all of the best gear and biggest spells all at one time. I played VTD with Smak and watched him one shot the first monster for 300+ and the rest of the party got a nice 11 minute plus time to chat. Everything is broken at this point.

This is why I can't care a lot about how much damage is dealt by max damage builds.

The constant increases in damage, either directly or indirectly, over time keeps pulling the game further and further from play when opening a 10-pack impacts someone's build. It's not just sealed vs BiS (or max dmg or whatever), it's rare today vs rare five years ago, URs today and URs five years ago, etc.

The patch was creating Epic as NM wasn't challenging enough. But, that was a temporary patch and that didn't solve that someone may easily fall in between current NM and current Epic. Monster abilities can keep increasing, but that means leaving further and further behind those who don't keep up with new tokens or who don't have certain old tokens, which can include just not having the best commons, uncommons, rares from previous years when trying to play HC, say.

So, class design changes can move everything from 4th/5th to 5th/6th or whatever to just push the whole game higher. Doubling wizard base spell damage starts making more sense if the levels change. Try to make tokens relative impact less by making starting points better. But, it's still just too wide a gap. And, token history interferes with messing with lower levels of play, anyway. Commons with damage wheels of 1-6 are still being printed. Each gain in puissance may individually seem minor, but they build on each other. Add +1/2/3 Str in one slot and then give out crits three times more often and already adding more than just +1/+1 to hit/damage. But, it's hardly such incremental increases anymore.

I don't see how one meaningfully addresses the power discrepancies given that this game won't reset the power of existing tokens across the board as that would destroy the economic model. So, I no longer worry about feeling like the dungeon will provide the challenge but focus on running our own runs where the party produces the challenge. If I just want to run more often on other people's runs, I'll calibrate to where I think the rest of the group expects builds to be and maybe it will work out to be challenging and maybe it will be too easy and maybe it will be too hard, but it will likely be a crapshoot with a bias towards too easy.

Btw, I thought about this as a separate thread and, maybe, it's worth taking it that way, anyway, but somebody asked in some thread how much damage a party member should do. I don't think it's that complicated to figure that out. Take the HP of the monster and divide by number of party members and by how many rounds you want combat to last on average and that would be average damage per party member per round. Adjust by class to differentiate classes by some degree, but the band of damage should be reasonable, not 30 pts by one member and 60 by another but more like 40 and ..., sadly, 60, with other levels of play being more like averaging 10 vs 15 or something.

Hit percentage and burst damage and various other things like Retribution damage bonus all complicate the numbers, of course. But, where being hit, taking damage in general, making saves all do effect goodness in a class/build, damage bands should still be reasonably close to not frustrate players. Note that this aspect of play is why I completely avoid PUGs that aren't like sealed pack play, anymore - they get ugly with imbalances in damage output even when people are trying to be fair.

Btw, to give monsters a chance, I don't think you plan for three rounds of combat being ideal. There's plenty of time to play more rounds than that with groups that aren't slow. Could maybe target four rounds, I suppose. So, 200 hp monster becomes average of 5 damage per round. Yes, 5 damage per round (on average, so misses and taking a round to heal and whatever impacts per member/per round damage). Doesn't that sound kind of pathetic? I've played where I could never see the party deal 200 damage in time or before all getting murdered in a final room, so the average number may seem misleading as those parties were missing far more often, didn't crit much, took more time off to heal party members, etc.

Now, contrary to what I just said, not all combats are equal. Can target one combat to last 2.5 rounds, another 3 rounds, and another 4.5 rounds or whatever in terms of setting HP.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an

Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.

I prefer to think of it as simply the Cleric channeling the power of Pelor through two Wizard vessels.