TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP

It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.

103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release

That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?

Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?

Excellent point.

All spells have a chance of failure, based on monster and module design.

What was the last monster that completely denied spells? I’m not aware of any since I started, but I spent over 3/4 of that time playing normal.

The closest I’m aware of was the ogre mage in... n1(?), where Magic missile still worked.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.

Keep in mind, your basing your fighter Damage Numbers on 2 crits, neither of which is guaranteed. We should run the numbers considering no one gets crits - neither the wizard nor the sliders. Also factor non ideal attack conditions - target monster is flying, for example.

In vtd the odds of critting with Thor’s are 30%.

The odds of critting with a reslide attempt are 49%.

The odds of critting with two reslide attempts are about 66%.

Taking the 49 percent crit chance due to reslide chance leaves fighters with something like:

2 fighters * 2 monsters * 55 damage * ( 40 % hit chance + 2* 49% crit chance ) ~= 303 damage on average.

Yes, one monster might fly.

Yes, one or both monsters might be immune or resistant to shock / fire / magic in the Two Wizard scenario.

My point here isn’t “The new tokens are balanced” - my point is effectively multiplying the Typical numbers by four by assuming two non-resistant enemies and two characters acting in concert Without providing context on what two other characters can do in similar circumstances is likely to lead to incorrect conclusions about relative power levels.

Thor’s crits on 19-20. Thors users got nothing in that regard from the legendary.

20% is the number.

But your final thought is right. There are always imponderables that complicate things.

We also need to determine if these attacks are being used in room 1 or room 7. In room 7 I see the wizard using all resources and not caring if they survive or not. In room 1 to go all out on damage you use all hp ...tying up other party members actions or consumables to live the rest of the dungeon. So therefore you need to consider if this is 2 party members dealing massive damage or the combined efforts of 3 or 4 to recover healing/consumables used.

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP

It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.

103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release

That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?

Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?

Not saying we should outdamage Smak. Pointing out your assertion was wrong.

Single puck sliders, smak withheld, can deal on non crit on averate from 40-70 damage.

If 1 Wizard is dealing 250 damage at the cost of 50 life that does not sound like they are doing more than the rest of the party combined if the rest of the party is dealing 60+ per hit.

it's also not unheard of for people to do single hit damage in the range of 150-250 on critical hits. Artifacts not withstanding.

Adam Guay wrote: We also need to determine if these attacks are being used in room 1 or room 7. In room 7 I see the wizard using all resources and not caring if they survive or not. In room 1 to go all out on damage you use all hp ...tying up other party members actions or consumables to live the rest of the dungeon. So therefore you need to consider if this is 2 party members dealing massive damage or the combined efforts of 3 or 4 to recover healing/consumables used.

But if you don't ignore the healing required to do some of these attacks you miss the fact that the Mad Evoker's charm got about a 40% weakening of HP to Damage over it's existing token and you can't blindly call it overpowered because it can allow for a 1/game large hit. All other big hits require another class enabling that hit in a large consumption of healing or consumable tokens.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.

Keep in mind, your basing your fighter Damage Numbers on 2 crits, neither of which is guaranteed. We should run the numbers considering no one gets crits - neither the wizard nor the sliders. Also factor non ideal attack conditions - target monster is flying, for example.

In vtd the odds of critting with Thor’s are 30%.

The odds of critting with a reslide attempt are 49%.

The odds of critting with two reslide attempts are about 66%.

Taking the 49 percent crit chance due to reslide chance leaves fighters with something like:

2 fighters * 2 monsters * 55 damage * ( 40 % hit chance + 2* 49% crit chance ) ~= 303 damage on average.

Yes, one monster might fly.

Yes, one or both monsters might be immune or resistant to shock / fire / magic in the Two Wizard scenario.

My point here isn’t “The new tokens are balanced” - my point is effectively multiplying the Typical numbers by four by assuming two non-resistant enemies and two characters acting in concert Without providing context on what two other characters can do in similar circumstances is likely to lead to incorrect conclusions about relative power levels.

The Wizard having agency to make this happen at will needs to be taken into account. Right now TD combats sometimes only go one round when the party gets lucky. Particularly when an epic geared group plays NM. I think if one round becomes the new normal for room 7 that would not be great. I think channeling hps should be less powerful than a crit.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP

It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.

103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release

That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?

Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?

Not saying we should outdamage Smak. Pointing out your assertion was wrong.

Single puck sliders, smak withheld, can deal on non crit on averate from 40-70 damage.

If 1 Wizard is dealing 250 damage at the cost of 50 life that does not sound like they are doing more than the rest of the party combined if the rest of the party is dealing 60+ per hit.

it's also not unheard of for people to do single hit damage in the range of 150-250 on critical hits. Artifacts not withstanding.

When did the bar change to "it's an OK amount of damage as long as the Wizards aren't doing more than everyone else combined"?

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP

It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.

103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release

That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?

Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?

Not saying we should outdamage Smak. Pointing out your assertion was wrong.

Single puck sliders, smak withheld, can deal on non crit on averate from 40-70 damage.

If 1 Wizard is dealing 250 damage at the cost of 50 life that does not sound like they are doing more than the rest of the party combined if the rest of the party is dealing 60+ per hit.

it's also not unheard of for people to do single hit damage in the range of 150-250 on critical hits. Artifacts not withstanding.

When did the bar change to "it's an OK amount of damage as long as the Wizards aren't doing more than everyone else combined"?

When Endgame set the bar there. I am speaking SPECIFICALLY to his assertion that the Wizards now deal more than all single puck sliders combined. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with his statement, I am simply pointing out that it is incorrect

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.

Keep in mind, your basing your fighter Damage Numbers on 2 crits, neither of which is guaranteed. We should run the numbers considering no one gets crits - neither the wizard nor the sliders. Also factor non ideal attack conditions - target monster is flying, for example.

In vtd the odds of critting with Thor’s are 30%.

The odds of critting with a reslide attempt are 49%.

The odds of critting with two reslide attempts are about 66%.

Taking the 49 percent crit chance due to reslide chance leaves fighters with something like:

2 fighters * 2 monsters * 55 damage * ( 40 % hit chance + 2* 49% crit chance ) ~= 303 damage on average.

Yes, one monster might fly.

Yes, one or both monsters might be immune or resistant to shock / fire / magic in the Two Wizard scenario.

My point here isn’t “The new tokens are balanced” - my point is effectively multiplying the Typical numbers by four by assuming two non-resistant enemies and two characters acting in concert Without providing context on what two other characters can do in similar circumstances is likely to lead to incorrect conclusions about relative power levels.

Thor’s crits on 19-20. Thors users got nothing in that regard from the legendary.

20% is the number.

But your final thought is right. There are always imponderables that complicate things.

Thank you! I crossed out that part in my original post.

I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I suggest we refrain from posting detailed analysis for the time being. There are a lot of assumptions which may be proven false later which are at play. At least two common ones I've seen in this thread:

* That the raw spell damage on wizards 3rd level spells will be doubled. Jeff said he as planning to double them, but we haven't actually seen the card yet.
* MEC analysis may be premature. There may be limits placed upon it or any number of other factors from the Relic/Legendary we don't know about yet. I have yet to see the updated descriptions from Jeff which he mentioned he was working on from Saturday night.

James Bennett wrote: I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I suggest we refrain from posting detailed analysis for the time being. There are a lot of assumptions which may be proven false later which are at play. At least two common ones I've seen in this thread:

* That the raw spell damage on wizards 3rd level spells will be doubled. Jeff said he as planning to double them, but we haven't actually seen the card yet.
* MEC analysis may be premature. There may be limits placed upon it or any number of other factors from the Relic/Legendary we don't know about yet. I have yet to see the updated descriptions from Jeff which he mentioned he was working on from Saturday night.

But being patient and waiting would prevent people from complaining the someone else might do more damage than them. Where's the fun in that?

Jeff, I will make one final plea: please include at minimum 1 mage power and 1 arch-mage power that costs no HP and I will absolutely love the neck items for Wizards. I can just use them for the non-harmful effects and play like the other options don’t exist It would be a nice little compromise that would go a long way!