TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

OrionW wrote: So one thing that gives me pause is that MEC might not be useable by most 4th level Wizards (The Ion Stone Elfstone Shard kind of makes it work but that is a pretty specific combo and depending on the transmute cost the Wizard may be better off just making the Wizard relic). Are there any other URs that can't be used at 4th level? To me it seems like the cost to use this UR might be too much, considering it could be a Wizards first UR if they pulled it randomly.

4th level wizard is base 16 HP (and 5th level is base 21). Neither could use a MEC without other token support.

Very edge case hypothetical, but a new wizard who only opened their 10 pack and got a MEC would not be able to use it. The highest HP they could have from a single pack of tokens with a MEC equipped would be 23.

Of course, insanely specific edge case, but it makes a point.

Dave wrote: I'm starting to think there's a reason wizards were saved for the end of the class specific legendary process. In past years I've said little to nothing in regards to class specific tokens (I may have commented a bit on barbarian or paladin because those are my backup builds), but generally I let those who play that class dominate the conversation. I'm not saying everyone isn't entitled to offer an opinion, but when the conversation around wizards starts to focus on other classes I kind of stop reading. If druids are happy with their class, then I'm happy for them. I really don't care how they stack up to wizards. In the end, it comes down to fun. Whether or not I deal the most damage will not decide how long I continue to play this game. If I'm having fun, I will continue to play. And while I sincerely love the TD community, the development process this year seems a little more tiresome than in the past (maybe that's only because I've participated more).

OK, I said that. I still love the game and I still love you guys. And most of all I love Jeff and the people who share their creativity and allow me to play in their world. Nothing being developed for 2021 makes me hesitant to continue to want to play. I need to say that first, because I do have a frustration to vent. 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for wizard development and has left me optimistic, but less than satisfied. We almost had familiars, but they aren't ready. We almost had a spellbook, but its not ready. We almost had new character cards, but it just isn't the right time (or there's not enough time). We almost were elevated to the top of the damage list, but it doesn't really feel like that happened either. The goal was to make us a glass cannon, but with all the emphasis on beefing up my hp, I'm really not feeling that either. It kind of feels like this year was the year of "almost". I just hope we see some of these things happen while I'm still alive. Ok, I said that too.

Nice post. I have very similar feelings in terms of this being the year of "almost" for the Wizards.

I will also say that I don't envy Jeff for having to try and figure out all the Tokens this year. It seems like each year he's got a hundred things to do and then Token design sneaks up on him. And this year with covid, lost conventions, lost staff, getting VTD up and going...well it seemed like he was even more behind the 8-ball when Token design rolled around. Thing is though if there's something that doesn't pan out or isn't working as intended I'm confident Jeff will get around to fixing it somehow. New Tokens can be printed, TDB can be updated, character cards haven't been finalized so that levers still in play, module design,...bottom line is I'm sure things will work out for Wizards (and other classes).

Dave wrote: I do have questions for the clerics and druids out there. How much healing can you do? and how much healing do you think is reasonable to allocate toward a wizard?

My default Cleric build is +25 healing. That will be +27 with the Skull transmute. I could squeeze out a couple more points probably, but don't like the tradeoffs. So I expect to be using two 0th level spells per room per Wizard to handle these effects. It'll be interesting to try to keep up with this and whatever damage the monsters and puzzles are causing.

As someone healing the Wizard, I'd much rather see a max HP penalty like I suggested earlier in the thread instead of the 25HP/use MEC. It would keep us on our toes about keeping the Wizard protected and healed, but doesn't penalize the Wizard (or the healers) for the Wizards doing what they are supposed to be doing. I also think it would scale the cost a bit better across the difficulty levels and token gearing levels.

Fiddy wrote:

Dave wrote: I do have questions for the clerics and druids out there. How much healing can you do? and how much healing do you think is reasonable to allocate toward a wizard?

My default Cleric build is +25 healing. That will be +27 with the Skull transmute. I could squeeze out a couple more points probably, but don't like the tradeoffs. So I expect to be using two 0th level spells per room per Wizard to handle these effects. It'll be interesting to try to keep up with this and whatever damage the monsters and puzzles are causing.

As someone healing the Wizard, I'd much rather see a max HP penalty like I suggested earlier in the thread instead of the 25HP/use MEC. It would keep us on our toes about keeping the Wizard protected and healed, but doesn't penalize the Wizard (or the healers) for the Wizards doing what they are supposed to be doing. I also think it would scale the cost a bit better across the difficulty levels and token gearing levels.

FWIW, I liked your idea. Then again, my favorite of the proposed designs was the one that capped HP in the first place, so I suppose it's not too surprising I feel that way.

NightGod wrote:

OrionW wrote: So one thing that gives me pause is that MEC might not be useable by most 4th level Wizards (The Ion Stone Elfstone Shard kind of makes it work but that is a pretty specific combo and depending on the transmute cost the Wizard may be better off just making the Wizard relic). Are there any other URs that can't be used at 4th level? To me it seems like the cost to use this UR might be too much, considering it could be a Wizards first UR if they pulled it randomly.

4th level wizard is base 16 HP (and 5th level is base 21). Neither could use a MEC without other token support.

Very edge case hypothetical, but a new wizard who only opened their 10 pack and got a MEC would not be able to use it. The highest HP they could have from a single pack of tokens with a MEC equipped would be 23.

Of course, insanely specific edge case, but it makes a point.

How do you get 23 from a single pack? 16 Base for wizard. Sweethood gets the 4, Medallion of Charmed life gets them 3 and IS Granite Ovoid would get them 1. 24. Unless you mean the Elf Wizard this it is 23 from a single pack since they start at 15.

isauteikisa wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Leitz wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 513 Lover wrote: I have no issue with private feedback as long as it comes before cutoffs and that feedback it expressed to the community. Feedback after FINAL cuts or that is not shared is what pissed me off last year. I choose not to participate this year because of that. Though if Jeff and Co do want to take private feedback after the FINAL cuts obviously he has every right, but I don't know why anyone would want to provide public feedback before cuts if they can be trumped but post FINAL non-community discussed feedback. This comment has nothing to do with the MEC in general just the way token design happened last year and may (I don't know because I did not particpate) have happened this year.

This take sums up the situation and its frustration pretty well.

+1

+1 here as well.

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Unrelated to the above, a suggestion for what to do with INT as a stopgap until an actual use can be found: every point of INT bonus -> -1 point of self damage.

This leaves INT in exactly the same state it was before for non-MEC wizards (that is, completely useless - not good, but can be patched later as needed), means Hat of Intellect is a useful option for UR-tier players, and means that the relic and legendary both have an interesting interaction with the class legendary. And thematically, it makes sense: a smarter wizard can negate some of the consequences of their actions.

I no longer have a dog in this fight, as at minimum I'm selling all my Wizard shit due to the last several years of clusterfucks of changes. But since I played a Wizard for years, I figure I may as well give an educated two cents.

jedibcg Banjo 237 Lover wrote:

NightGod wrote:

OrionW wrote: So one thing that gives me pause is that MEC might not be useable by most 4th level Wizards (The Ion Stone Elfstone Shard kind of makes it work but that is a pretty specific combo and depending on the transmute cost the Wizard may be better off just making the Wizard relic). Are there any other URs that can't be used at 4th level? To me it seems like the cost to use this UR might be too much, considering it could be a Wizards first UR if they pulled it randomly.

4th level wizard is base 16 HP (and 5th level is base 21). Neither could use a MEC without other token support.

Very edge case hypothetical, but a new wizard who only opened their 10 pack and got a MEC would not be able to use it. The highest HP they could have from a single pack of tokens with a MEC equipped would be 23.

Of course, insanely specific edge case, but it makes a point.

How do you get 23 from a single pack? 16 Base for wizard. Sweethood gets the 4, Medallion of Charmed life gets them 3 and IS Granite Ovoid would get them 1. 24. Unless you mean the Elf Wizard this it is 23 from a single pack since they start at 15.

You're right. For some reason I was thinking Charmed Life was a charm slot and, so, counted for the 1 charm. That's what I get for reading forums during PI planning

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

It should be since there are certain people who only want to complain their relic isn't good enough so I should make sure everything else gets changed too.

I would really like to know the opinions and names of the people who made the last minute suggestions so I could u understand why a token I liked to use is now pretty much useless.

I would try to switch classes but with a large number of legendaries sunk into this class I really feel stuck.

Adam Guay wrote:

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

It should be since there are certain people who only want to complain their relic isn't good enough so I should make sure everything else gets changed too.

I would really like to know the opinions and names of the people who made the last minute suggestions so I could u understand why a token I liked to use is now pretty much useless.

I would try to switch classes but with a large number of legendaries sunk into this class I really feel stuck.

Personally, I just really want to know what the feedback was. I agree with the people who have pointed out that it really feels like the year of 'almost' for the wizard class, so I'm really curious what feedback/points were made so far after the final deadline that were so compelling that it resulted in these updates. I realize we aren't entitled to it, because ultimately it is Jeff who makes the final call and it's awesome to see the community allowed to be part of the process at all. I just can't for the life of me, after watching the conversations that happened originally around these three tokens, come up with anything that wouldn't have already been discussed at length. And in some way that bothers me more, some how?

That being said, I don't envy Jeff's job of keeping this all balanced and I appreciate the effort that goes in to token creating more than I ever did before.

There are 25 pages in the other thread and Jeff may have been referencing that thread. I do think part of the reason the Wizard token keeps changing is people keep posting.

OrionW wrote: There are 25 pages in the other thread and Jeff may have been referencing that thread. I do think part of the reason the Wizard token keeps changing is people keep posting.

If that is the case I'd hope he would bring a token change to the Wizards to verify we like it before paying to change it. I am still holding out hope that the new plate change is not permanent and he can at least revert it to the last vertion of the Mad Evoker's Charm. The 1:1 channeling is a much cleaner solution than the currently suggested 25HP trigger.

The 1:1 channeling works at all play levels. Let it run 1/round on the 1:1 Channeling and let that work with mage powers. Keep mage powers of this new iteration (minus the spell resistance one, I'd really prefer SR never crop up in TD again, it's just an extremely negative play experience.) and keep the 5HP per activation. Allow max of 2 buffs per activation at Relic and 4 at Legendary, remove the 1/room limit on the necklace powers and you have a solidly strong token that most Wizards will get behind, a charm that Wizards were accepting of the changes to and the general acceptance of most of the class.

I'd still ask for something added to the relic and legendary to make up for the move to the neck slot but we'd be in a much more accepted spot than we are today.