TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your comments Dave but it sounds like the new version of the Mad Evoker's Charm is causing you to abandon spell damage for saves and HP. That seems like the opposite direction of a glass canon design. Would you agree that this version of the token is pushing your build away from maximizing damage due to the sheer HP costs?

I'm not abandoning spell damage. The highest I could get it to (and keep Cabal set) is 33. I'll probably end up at 29. My current interpretation is that hp now loosely translates to spell damage through the mage and archmage abilities. If I cast around 12 spells per dungeon, I can get 48 damage if I can squeeze out another 4 damage per spell. I'm just assuming (need to do more analysis) that greater use of the new abilities will get me back much more than 48 points of damage. Could I get the best of both worlds, spell damage and maximum use of abilities? Maybe? But if I fail one saving throw I otherwise could have avoided or come up 5 hp short of having enough to use an ability, I could lose more than the 48 points of damage.

It's something I need to still play with. But in short, yes, I am willing to give up some spell damage for more hp. If you start out as "glass" before you start casting spells, then you won't be around by round 2 or 3 to keep casting. I could totally see a situation where I'd use Quicken, MEC, Fork, Boost and Alter in the same round. I'd need 45 hp to channel for that and would still like enough hp left to survive into the next round and use MEC again if I so desire.

Dave wrote:

NightGod wrote: What damage reduction options do we have that fit in with your build plans? I can think of things like Kvothe's, but that's spell/missle damage only, so would have helped for the Ogre Mage fireball in N&N and maybe Entity 513's attacks if they were considered spell damage and not just electrical attacks (which I don't think is the case). Other than incidental pieces, I don't know of much room in the builds for DR.

Supreme Ring of Elemental Command is huge. I know sometimes TD likes to create exotic damage types to minimize the impact of this ring, but doing so nerfs over 50 tokens that mitigate fire, cold, shock or sonic which creates a lot of negative feedback. So this ring helps a lot. And then I do have Odin's medallion which lowers everything except eldritch by 2.

So what I'm reading is: only group with Smackdown if you're a MEC wizard so he can take the first hit for you.

Does boost require you to mark off the spell?

Hypothetical Situations
My spell bonus damage is 29.
I cast Ray of Shock a sliding spell with a base damage of 18.
I announce that I'm using MEC to double the base to 36.
I happen to know the monster's weakness and announce I'm using Alter (assume a bonus of 5 pts).
My total damage is 36 + 5 + 29 (bonus spell damage) = 70
I also announce before my slide that I'm using Sharpen, so if I crit does that double the entire 70 to 140?
There is more than one monster in the room, so I'm also going to use Fork.
Q - Do both targets take 140 pts of damage? Fork does say "Both targets are dealt the same damage, including all bonus damage modifiers the initial target was subjected to."
I also announce that I'm using Boost to give my 36 base to the dwarf fighter, using Jeff's example. If the dwarf fighter get a natural 20, that would equal a bonus of 108 pts of damage.

I also announce I'm using Quicken to cast a fireball doing 20 damage to one target and 49 (20+29) to the other.

Scenario 1 - (Unlikely, but possible)
If all of the above is correct (I'm sure I probably have something wrong). Have I contributed a total of 457 points of damage? Even if the crit bonus doesn't extend to 2nd monster through fork the total would be 387 points of damage.
monster 1 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 108 from dwarf fighter = 297 pts of damage
monster 2 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 160 pts of damage

This would cost me 50 hp and I'd be down to only 1 ability left in this room. (Probably absorb or conserve). Now, a lot has to happen to hit this kind of total. I'm just asking if it's possible.

Scenario 2 (more likely)
Assume I hit the slide but do not crit and I decide to boost a Barbarian using Fury).
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage
Monster 2 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 90 pts of damage
Total = 281 points

Scenario 3 (more typical)
Only 1 monster in room, so forget Fork.
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage.

Mostly just want to know if I'm interpreting the interaction of these abilities correctly.

Dave wrote: Hypothetical Situations
My spell bonus damage is 29.
I cast Ray of Shock a sliding spell with a base damage of 18.
I announce that I'm using MEC to double the base to 36.
I happen to know the monster's weakness and announce I'm using Alter (assume a bonus of 5 pts).
My total damage is 36 + 5 + 29 (bonus spell damage) = 70
I also announce before my slide that I'm using Sharpen, so if I crit does that double the entire 70 to 140?
There is more than one monster in the room, so I'm also going to use Fork.
Q - Do both targets take 140 pts of damage? Fork does say "Both targets are dealt the same damage, including all bonus damage modifiers the initial target was subjected to."
I also announce that I'm using Boost to give my 36 base to the dwarf fighter, using Jeff's example. If the dwarf fighter get a natural 20, that would equal a bonus of 108 pts of damage.

I also announce I'm using Quicken to cast a fireball doing 20 damage to one target and 49 (20+29) to the other.

Scenario 1 - (Unlikely, but possible)
If all of the above is correct (I'm sure I probably have something wrong). Have I contributed a total of 457 points of damage? Even if the crit bonus doesn't extend to 2nd monster through fork the total would be 387 points of damage.
monster 1 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 108 from dwarf fighter = 297 pts of damage
monster 2 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 160 pts of damage

This would cost me 50 hp and I'd be down to only 1 ability left in this room. (Probably absorb or conserve). Now, a lot has to happen to hit this kind of total. I'm just asking if it's possible.

Scenario 2 (more likely)
Assume I hit the slide but do not crit and I decide to boost a Barbarian using Fury).
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage
Monster 2 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 90 pts of damage
Total = 281 points

Scenario 3 (more typical)
Only 1 monster in room, so forget Fork.
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage.

Mostly just want to know if I'm interpreting the interaction of these abilities correctly.

If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.

Mike Steele wrote:
If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. There are a LOT of what if's in that situation. The wizard has to crit with the slide, and the DF needs a natural 20.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule would be base damage is tripled, not doubled and doubled again, as it would be if multiple things add to a crit effect.

Dave wrote: Hypothetical Situations
My spell bonus damage is 29.
I cast Ray of Shock a sliding spell with a base damage of 18.
I announce that I'm using MEC to double the base to 36.
I happen to know the monster's weakness and announce I'm using Alter (assume a bonus of 5 pts).
My total damage is 36 + 5 + 29 (bonus spell damage) = 70
I also announce before my slide that I'm using Sharpen, so if I crit does that double the entire 70 to 140?
There is more than one monster in the room, so I'm also going to use Fork.
Q - Do both targets take 140 pts of damage? Fork does say "Both targets are dealt the same damage, including all bonus damage modifiers the initial target was subjected to."
I also announce that I'm using Boost to give my 36 base to the dwarf fighter, using Jeff's example. If the dwarf fighter get a natural 20, that would equal a bonus of 108 pts of damage.

I also announce I'm using Quicken to cast a fireball doing 20 damage to one target and 49 (20+29) to the other.

Scenario 1 - (Unlikely, but possible)
If all of the above is correct (I'm sure I probably have something wrong). Have I contributed a total of 457 points of damage? Even if the crit bonus doesn't extend to 2nd monster through fork the total would be 387 points of damage.
monster 1 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 108 from dwarf fighter = 297 pts of damage
monster 2 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 160 pts of damage

This would cost me 50 hp and I'd be down to only 1 ability left in this room. (Probably absorb or conserve). Now, a lot has to happen to hit this kind of total. I'm just asking if it's possible.

Scenario 2 (more likely)
Assume I hit the slide but do not crit and I decide to boost a Barbarian using Fury).
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage
Monster 2 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 90 pts of damage
Total = 281 points

Scenario 3 (more typical)
Only 1 monster in room, so forget Fork.
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage.

Mostly just want to know if I'm interpreting the interaction of these abilities correctly.

You may use Quicken on Lightning storm OR Sharpen on Ray of Shock. Both buffs require your Free Action to cast and it's limited to 1 Free Action buff to 1 spell per turn from what I understand.

A MEC doubled Ray of Shock with Alter and Sharpen that hits 18+ does give 140 damage. In the event there is a second target in the room and you forked the spell that does hit both targets.

You can not Boost the spell to the Dwarf if you are actually casting it as far as I can tell so that's out.

You can not quicken a second spell HOWEVER you could quicken the Ray of Shock and standard action the Fireball.

So you're looking at

MEC+Alter+Quicken+Sharpen+Fork on Ray of shock for 70/140 damage at a cost of 45HP. Assume Conserve as well so 50HP.

Fireball for 20 to each plus 29 pool.

So in that scenerio you are looking at 70/140+20 = 90/160*2+29 = 180/310+29 damage for a cost of 50HP.

That's impressive damage if there's 2 enemies in the room.

That's also 5 times the cost of the mad evoker's charm based on today and it's nearly half your HP assuming Best in Slot Legendary boosts.

It also leaves you turn 2 with MEC Lightning Storm if you have Crown of Expertise for 40*2+29 and nothing else at a cost of 25 more HP.

Is a slide spell considered a missile attack?

Can two MEC Wizards combo using MEC+Boost from 1 Wizard to add +36 base damage to the second MEC Wizard who uses MEC+Sharpen+Alter+Quicken to throw a 72+5(vuln) base damage Ray of Shock that crits on 18+ for 77+29= 106*2 = 212 damage?

That seems fun and not over powered considering it's using a combined HP of 70HP between the two wizards and using the MEC trigger and Free Actions of both wizards. Meaning both could swing another spell but at 20+spell damage max for that second spell.

It honestly seems that it'd be more damage to boost someone using a 3x crit weapon or effect but I like the idea of channeling my mad evocation into the spell strike of another Wizard to do a combined spell strike.

Rob F wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm starting to think there's a reason wizards were saved for the end of the class specific legendary process. In past years I've said little to nothing in regards to class specific tokens (I may have commented a bit on barbarian or paladin because those are my backup builds), but generally I let those who play that class dominate the conversation. I'm not saying everyone isn't entitled to offer an opinion, but when the conversation around wizards starts to focus on other classes I kind of stop reading. If druids are happy with their class, then I'm happy for them. I really don't care how they stack up to wizards. In the end, it comes down to fun. Whether or not I deal the most damage will not decide how long I continue to play this game. If I'm having fun, I will continue to play. And while I sincerely love the TD community, the development process this year seems a little more tiresome than in the past (maybe that's only because I've participated more).

OK, I said that. I still love the game and I still love you guys. And most of all I love Jeff and the people who share their creativity and allow me to play in their world. Nothing being developed for 2021 makes me hesitant to continue to want to play. I need to say that first, because I do have a frustration to vent. 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for wizard development and has left me optimistic, but less than satisfied. We almost had familiars, but they aren't ready. We almost had a spellbook, but its not ready. We almost had new character cards, but it just isn't the right time (or there's not enough time). We almost were elevated to the top of the damage list, but it doesn't really feel like that happened either. The goal was to make us a glass cannon, but with all the emphasis on beefing up my hp, I'm really not feeling that either. It kind of feels like this year was the year of "almost". I just hope we see some of these things happen while I'm still alive. Ok, I said that too.

Nice post. I have very similar feelings in terms of this being the year of "almost" for the Wizards.

I will also say that I don't envy Jeff for having to try and figure out all the Tokens this year. It seems like each year he's got a hundred things to do and then Token design sneaks up on him. And this year with covid, lost conventions, lost staff, getting VTD up and going...well it seemed like he was even more behind the 8-ball when Token design rolled around. Thing is though if there's something that doesn't pan out or isn't working as intended I'm confident Jeff will get around to fixing it somehow. New Tokens can be printed, TDB can be updated, character cards haven't been finalized so that levers still in play, module design,...bottom line is I'm sure things will work out for Wizards (and other classes).

Wouldn’t the logical solution be to have longer time for token dev? Like, say, 4 months. You can even save time and submit all of the first several rounds of token design as text only, no images.

Kitkumi wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

It should be since there are certain people who only want to complain their relic isn't good enough so I should make sure everything else gets changed too.

I would really like to know the opinions and names of the people who made the last minute suggestions so I could u understand why a token I liked to use is now pretty much useless.

I would try to switch classes but with a large number of legendaries sunk into this class I really feel stuck.

Personally, I just really want to know what the feedback was. I agree with the people who have pointed out that it really feels like the year of 'almost' for the wizard class, so I'm really curious what feedback/points were made so far after the final deadline that were so compelling that it resulted in these updates. I realize we aren't entitled to it, because ultimately it is Jeff who makes the final call and it's awesome to see the community allowed to be part of the process at all. I just can't for the life of me, after watching the conversations that happened originally around these three tokens, come up with anything that wouldn't have already been discussed at length. And in some way that bothers me more, some how?

That being said, I don't envy Jeff's job of keeping this all balanced and I appreciate the effort that goes in to token creating more than I ever did before.

Personally, I want to stop posting my feedback publicly and send all of my thoughts as PMs to Jeff. We should all do that. Then, we can’t have our compelling points critiqued by Dr. Uids or anyone else. Clearly, that is what Jeff is asking for by showing us private messages can lead to last minute changes with no room for conversation.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. There are a LOT of what if's in that situation. The wizard has to crit with the slide, and the DF needs a natural 20.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule would be base damage is tripled, not doubled and doubled again, as it would be if multiple things add to a crit effect.

Also, absolutely none of what Dave posted will happen, as his line up play requires 3 free actions in one turn.

I suppose it’s not crystal clear, but once all is said and done, I predict:

1. You can’t boost a spell you and also get the cast benefit of its effect. Boost will require a standards and a free action (free for the boost mage power, standard to actually cast the spell) and result in solely the boost happening.

2. You can’t modify two different spells with mage powers on the same turn, you can’t pierce/fork spell A and then quicken spell B. You can apply any number of mage powers to a single spell as a free action. You would need another free action to modify a second spell.

Again, I could be wrong - but I’m will be astonished if I am.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

It should be since there are certain people who only want to complain their relic isn't good enough so I should make sure everything else gets changed too.

I would really like to know the opinions and names of the people who made the last minute suggestions so I could u understand why a token I liked to use is now pretty much useless.

I would try to switch classes but with a large number of legendaries sunk into this class I really feel stuck.

Personally, I just really want to know what the feedback was. I agree with the people who have pointed out that it really feels like the year of 'almost' for the wizard class, so I'm really curious what feedback/points were made so far after the final deadline that were so compelling that it resulted in these updates. I realize we aren't entitled to it, because ultimately it is Jeff who makes the final call and it's awesome to see the community allowed to be part of the process at all. I just can't for the life of me, after watching the conversations that happened originally around these three tokens, come up with anything that wouldn't have already been discussed at length. And in some way that bothers me more, some how?

That being said, I don't envy Jeff's job of keeping this all balanced and I appreciate the effort that goes in to token creating more than I ever did before.

Personally, I want to stop posting my feedback publicly and send all of my thoughts as PMs to Jeff. We should all do that. Then, we can’t have our compelling points critiqued by Dr. Uids or anyone else. Clearly, that is what Jeff is asking for by showing us private messages can lead to last minute changes with no room for conversation.

I would rather not be a part of the token design of this is the route taken