TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.

So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it

Wizard relic grants 5 one per room abilities.

Three of those are conditional to varying degrees of “likely to be useful in one room per dungeon” to “unlikely to Be useful over the course of the entire dungeon.”

One of the two unconditional powers benefits only slide spells, which many wizards disprefer, and which in any case level 5 Elf Wizard has 2 of and Wizard 3 of.

All abilities come with a drawback cost of hp and the use of your free action for the round.

Compare with the cleric relic which basically says: “you can attack and also buff the party or heal every round - if things have gotten weird you can forego attacking for two buffs or heals.”

There is no question to me which of these two effects is more powerful.

So abilities that reset every room for use is way worse than me being able to pray and attack 2 times and heal two times? and the heal would be your circumstantial spells

Miathan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.

So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it

Wizard relic grants 5 one per room abilities.

Three of those are conditional to varying degrees of “likely to be useful in one room per dungeon” to “unlikely to Be useful over the course of the entire dungeon.”

One of the two unconditional powers benefits only slide spells, which many wizards disprefer, and which in any case level 5 Elf Wizard has 2 of and Wizard 3 of.

All abilities come with a drawback cost of hp and the use of your free action for the round.

Compare with the cleric relic which basically says: “you can attack and also buff the party or heal every round - if things have gotten weird you can forego attacking for two buffs or heals.”

There is no question to me which of these two effects is more powerful.

So abilities that reset every room for use is way worse than me being able to pray and attack 2 times and heal two times? and the heal would be your circumstantial spells

Last comment on this topic.

Surely you realize that the underlying spells cast by Wizards don't "reset every room."

You are looking at a limited 1/room ability and an unlimited always on ability and saying: "The limited 1/room ability is better, because it resets at the start of each room" - bizarre.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.

So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it

Wizard relic grants 5 one per room abilities.

Three of those are conditional to varying degrees of “likely to be useful in one room per dungeon” to “unlikely to Be useful over the course of the entire dungeon.”

One of the two unconditional powers benefits only slide spells, which many wizards disprefer, and which in any case level 5 Elf Wizard has 2 of and Wizard 3 of.

All abilities come with a drawback cost of hp and the use of your free action for the round.

Compare with the cleric relic which basically says: “you can attack and also buff the party or heal every round - if things have gotten weird you can forego attacking for two buffs or heals.”

There is no question to me which of these two effects is more powerful.

So abilities that reset every room for use is way worse than me being able to pray and attack 2 times and heal two times? and the heal would be your circumstantial spells

Last comment on this topic.

Surely you realize that the underlying spells cast by Wizards don't "reset every room."

You are looking at a limited 1/room ability and an unlimited always on ability and saying: "The limited 1/room ability is better, because it resets at the start of each room" - bizarre.

And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

I will fight you on that, I think Guardians of the Galaxy is a better superhero movie and so is Into the Spiderverse. They both have more heart to them than The Dark Knight (and I am a DC fan). Don't get me wrong I like The Dark Knight, I just disagree about it being the best superhero movie....not that I am trying to derail this thread....lol.

jedibcg Banjo 237 Lover wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

I will fight you on that, I think Guardians of the Galaxy is a better superhero movie and so is Into the Spiderverse. They both have more heart to them than The Dark Knight (and I am a DC fan). Don't get me wrong I like The Dark Knight, I just disagree about it being the best superhero movie....not that I am trying to derail this thread....lol.

I think we're at that point where derailment might be appreciated.

Fiddy wrote: Shhhhhh!

Please don't bring up Clerics and Fighters. I'd rather not see any last-minute changes to them happen.

Plenty of good reasons to adjust MEC and the Wizard Relic/Legendary without dragging them into it.

We could always talk about druids again and how they are so obviously weaker/stronger than wizards

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?

I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.

While I appreciate your optimism, I simply don’t think this is accurate.

Monks and Rangers have been the top damage dealers for at least 5 years and they keep pulling further a heads.

Rangers, Clercis, and especially Druids had a substantial setback when the Eldritch set was redesigned and LoDS function was changed - that was a nearly singular event in the history of TD (I guess there was also when wizards learned mec doesn’t double base spell damage but rather adds a pool of damage equal to the base spell damage...).

There was that one year where Wizards and Druids got a pretty big boost, and to a lesser extent Clerics and Bards when MMM was in print and wands were not expendable, but after one season that was undone.

In general power granting things in TD are not class specific, and in general the most token love in terms of stackable bonuses is given to melee, and then spell, and then physical ranged.

I just don’t see TD as a game where different classes take turns in poll position, or where class differences are ironed out over time.

If you don’t like where wizards are now, you could certainly take a wait and see approach.

I’ve been waiting for wizard to have in game benefits to compensate for their limited resources, lowest saves, lowest AC, worst equipment, and lowest HP for 13 years now - while playing them for flavor reasons in the meantime.

Some things have gotten better - I no longer hear people banging on about how +1 spell damage is an appropriate UR ring effect, or about how Earcuff Of Energy or other UR level “as a scroll” effects are amazingly great. There are numerous tokens at rare and even uncommon for spellcasters (look at how many years Belt/Gauntlet of ogre power existed before a rare +1 focus item to get a sense of how grim it used to be).

I'm very hopeful that at some point the double damage bonus ability of the Monk and Ranger will be corrected, maybe when the character cards are redesigned.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I am
Not reading all this.
But it reminds me of the Dark Knight. I was so mad Heath Ledger playing the Joker. I hated the idea. I hated the movie. Then as it got closer and I started looking. I became intrigued and gave it a try. To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

How the hell am I the voice of reason

Chad, you're clearly not the voice of reason, the best Superhero movie is still the first Superman with Christopher Reeve.

jedibcg Banjo 237 Lover wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

I will fight you on that, I think Guardians of the Galaxy is a better superhero movie and so is Into the Spiderverse. They both have more heart to them than The Dark Knight (and I am a DC fan). Don't get me wrong I like The Dark Knight, I just disagree about it being the best superhero movie....not that I am trying to derail this thread....lol.

I'm with you on that, I'm a big fan of pretty much every Marvel Cinematic Universe movie, and Guardians of the Galaxy (1 and to a lesser extent 2) and Thor Ragnarok are probably my favorites. Captain Marvel is a sentimental favorite since I've been a fan of the character since Ms. Marvel 1 in 1977 and after having years and years pass without a single appearance in comics it's amazing that she got a big budget movie.

Is anyone else looking forward to the Marvel Disney+ shows? Moon Knight in particular has a lot of promise to me.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.

So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it

Wizard relic grants 5 one per room abilities.

Three of those are conditional to varying degrees of “likely to be useful in one room per dungeon” to “unlikely to Be useful over the course of the entire dungeon.”

One of the two unconditional powers benefits only slide spells, which many wizards disprefer, and which in any case level 5 Elf Wizard has 2 of and Wizard 3 of.

All abilities come with a drawback cost of hp and the use of your free action for the round.

Compare with the cleric relic which basically says: “you can attack and also buff the party or heal every round - if things have gotten weird you can forego attacking for two buffs or heals.”

There is no question to me which of these two effects is more powerful.

So abilities that reset every room for use is way worse than me being able to pray and attack 2 times and heal two times? and the heal would be your circumstantial spells

Last comment on this topic.

Surely you realize that the underlying spells cast by Wizards don't "reset every room."

You are looking at a limited 1/room ability and an unlimited always on ability and saying: "The limited 1/room ability is better, because it resets at the start of each room" - bizarre.

And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.

I don’t see this as a divide, I see this as a differing of opinions which I feel is healthy. If I ran with Mathew in the dungeon I’m gonna heal him as I am a team player. I don’t see how/why anyone would bring an outside discussion into the dungeon for a tpk

Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: ...
And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.

I don’t see this as a divide, I see this as a differing of opinions which I feel is healthy. If I ran with Mathew in the dungeon I’m gonna heal him as I am a team player. I don’t see how/why anyone would bring an outside discussion into the dungeon for a tpk

I feel the same. I also play Cleric and Druid sometimes too - so I'll be on both sides of this equation.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: ...
And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.

I don’t see this as a divide, I see this as a differing of opinions which I feel is healthy. If I ran with Mathew in the dungeon I’m gonna heal him as I am a team player. I don’t see how/why anyone would bring an outside discussion into the dungeon for a tpk

I feel the same. I also play Cleric and Druid sometimes too - so I'll be on both sides of this equation.

It's fun to tease people that you won't be healing them, but ultimately I will heal anyone I can who needs it.

I'm really looking forward to getting to know my wizard friends much more closely.