TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Adam Guay wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: How about this..I know it is probably too late to change, but I am just trying to find something everyone agrees on...what if it (MEC) doubled all bonuses, not just base+skill check. still keep the cost at 25 HP

I would get behind this. If it were to change to this, I think a lot more people would be satisfied.
Thanks for all you do on this.

Sounds like a pretty great idea to me.

Sounds like a better version of Mec...allows you to at least invest in how much damage you get for your 25 hp.

Depends if spell damage on the cards is doubled. If it is, you could be looking at, what,+70 Damage for a spell? That is a dramatic increase in damage per hp.

I would say over the top and Way too much....

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I don't see the token development process as something strictly to advocate for tokens which affect me personally, but for balance of the game. There seem to be very few voices now during the token development process to push back on excessive (in my opinion of course) power growth. There are numerous players actively involved in token development discussions for tokens that aren't in classes that they play or that they won't personally use.

I'm not motivated at all by any concern that our "group's wizard was going to get one and suddenly be so overpowered for Hardcore that they either pushed your group into Nightmare or stopped running with you because they didn't feel it was a challenge at Hardcore?" It is probably not productive to try to make up motives for other's actions out of thin air.

You say "thin air" and yet, in fairness, you spent a lot of effort drilling up massive damage number examples for players in epic tier gear sets and applying these numbers against Hardcore/Nightmare monsters that are much closer to what you normally face and going "THIS IS TOO POWERFUL", instead of their more likely targets: Epic level monsters. I thank you for your work on the math even if we disagreed on what the results were. While curbing power growth is a laudable goal, I think it might have been good to keep in mind that the wizards are currently under-powered by Jeffs own stated goal of them being the highest damage dealers.`

I'm not so sure Wizard's are under-powered now, when you take into account the ability to cast two spells per round at least one time per room, to recast their best spell every room, and to get area attack spells (and Jeff said there will be more rooms where that comes into play), in addition to other powers. If Wizards are under-powered compared to Monks and Rangers because they get to add their damage bonus potentially twice per attack, it seems like instead of increasing Wizard damage to be greater than that, the better solution is to fix the Monk and Ranger so they can only get their damage bonus once per round like other Melee classes.

Someone warn the monks and rangers....Mike is coming for you next!

I'll be surprised if something like that isn't enacted eventually. It seems like a pretty simple fix to a gap between Ranger / Monk and the rest of the classes that gets bigger and bigger every year.

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: How about this..I know it is probably too late to change, but I am just trying to find something everyone agrees on...what if it (MEC) doubled all bonuses, not just base+skill check. still keep the cost at 25 HP

I would get behind this. If it were to change to this, I think a lot more people would be satisfied.
Thanks for all you do on this.

Sounds like a pretty great idea to me.

Sounds like a better version of Mec...allows you to at least invest in how much damage you get for your 25 hp.

Depends if spell damage on the cards is doubled. If it is, you could be looking at, what,+70 Damage for a spell? That is a dramatic increase in damage per hp.

I would say over the top and Way too much....

+70 damage at the cost of 25 hp for a BIS wizard. People love to gloss over the HP cost like it doesn't matter.

NightGod wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: How about this..I know it is probably too late to change, but I am just trying to find something everyone agrees on...what if it (MEC) doubled all bonuses, not just base+skill check. still keep the cost at 25 HP

I would get behind this. If it were to change to this, I think a lot more people would be satisfied.
Thanks for all you do on this.

Sounds like a pretty great idea to me.

Sounds like a better version of Mec...allows you to at least invest in how much damage you get for your 25 hp.

Depends if spell damage on the cards is doubled. If it is, you could be looking at, what,+70 Damage for a spell? That is a dramatic increase in damage per hp.

I would say over the top and Way too much....

+70 damage at the cost of 25 hp for a BIS wizard. People love to gloss over the HP cost like it doesn't matter.

Any other token give anywhere near +70 damage? Like...Trent's whole Barbarian build doesn't equal +70 damage - the cost better be high.

Endgame wrote: Any other token give anywhere near +70 damage? Like...Trent's whole Barbarian build doesn't equal +70 damage - the cost better be high.

Agreed, they should be forced to pay like 25 HP or something per shot to help balance that out.

I’m not sure why people keep suggesting the new cards will double. Jeff explicitly said he isn’t doing that anymore.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I’m not sure why people keep suggesting the new cards will double. Jeff explicitly said he isn’t doing that anymore.

While it says that in the first post of this thread, there appears to be further clarification on the first page on the linked pdf (same post)

MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf wrote: Note: Because the original MEC damage effect will remain in play, Wizard cards will not be getting redesigned until all class cards are updated. This should be in the next year or so.

(emphasis mine)

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: How about this..I know it is probably too late to change, but I am just trying to find something everyone agrees on...what if it (MEC) doubled all bonuses, not just base+skill check. still keep the cost at 25 HP

A great idea from a great player.

Doing this would make UR MeC a "build around" token giving players two dimensions to optimize on: health and spell damage.

It would make the Legendary users capable of keeping up with Monk/Ranger by giving them access to their spell damage bonus twice per round (still at a cost of 25 HP, but hey, pothings nerfect).

At all levels of play where used it would give many Wizards a real reason to "press their luck" with regard to HP spent - as opposed to now where only a few seem to consider the tradeoff worthwhile.

I am just trying to figure out something that works good and is fair. I spent a lot of time writing things out. Moving parts around to come up with something. For a class I don’t play like everyone else. But I was trying

I (for one) appreciate your efforts to look a viable and fair solution. I'm not sure this it, but its a pretty good attempt. I share the angst a lot of people have over this change. in the past, if you committed to using MEC, it pretty much dictated several slots in your build. It wasn't as easy as just adding a charm. So, there is definitely a feeling of loss with this change.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've asked myself...If MEC wasn't part of the relic/legendary token, would I still equip it in this new form? Even if I wanted to, what would I give up? Avarice? Nope. Awakened Synergy? Probably not. Charm of Glory? There's a lot of good rings that provide me damage, so probably not. Charm of Cabal? No!!! It's the one set that gives me more damage than old MEC. Charm of Brooching? Maybe, I'd at least have to think about that. Spell Swapping? No way, I'm going to need all the damage spells I can get. Draco-Lich? Just found out it's +2 to all spells, so I'd like to use it, but have to think about that as well. And if I'm going with more than 3 charms, where do I get the extra slots? The bottom line is this, I'm not so sure MEC would still be considered BIS for many wizards given its new cost. As an "add on" to the relic/legendary it may see limited use, but I just don't think it stands on its own.

As far as Laz's proposal. I like the elegance of tying MEC boost to spell damage in the sense it creates a trade-off between damage and hp. You want more damage? Fine, give up hp. You want more hp? Fine, give up spell damage. One concern is that bonus damage doesn't scale between spell levels. You'll end up with 0 level spells doing close to the same damage as 3rd level spells.

As far as wizards needing more damage. I'm not in the camp that we need much more damage per spell. With the new tokens using MEC no more than once or twice a run I should be able to do around 900 points of damage over 10 combat rounds (assumes 4 combat rooms). That's gotta put me somewhere near the top. My issue is that I see a formula developing. Round 1 do A, B and C. Round 2 do X, Y and Z. Next room. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Less fun, and I actually see wizards being much less "glass" with the new builds.

So, here we are. I'm not expecting much to change. My next expectation is that we'll get the recipes for the 2021 transmutes and we can start to argue about something else. At this point, it will be a welcome relief.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: How about this..I know it is probably too late to change, but I am just trying to find something everyone agrees on...what if it (MEC) doubled all bonuses, not just base+skill check. still keep the cost at 25 HP

More palatable. How does it fill the “Glass Cannon” role that it was suppose to be? It seems like it reinforces HP stacking though it threads a needle between more HP and more bonuses. I guess by the fact that it provides a more up vs more bonuses question there would be some glassy builds out there.

I think Mathew Hayward might have done some napkin mathematics around an option like that. If I recall not top and it requires a large investment from a cleric or Dr. uid.

Guys, I think I finally figured it out. This isn't a nerf to Wizards - it's a nerf to Druids because Druids won't let Jeff actually nerf Druids, so Jeff is doing this to force Druids to spend all of their actions healing Wizards instead.

(/s, I think? Hard to tell at this point)

Allen John wrote: Guys, I think I finally figured it out. This isn't a nerf to Wizards - it's a nerf to Druids because Druids won't let Jeff actually nerf Druids, so Jeff is doing this to force Druids to spend all of their actions healing Wizards instead.

(/s, I think? Hard to tell at this point)

Please, it's Dr. Uids. We must use the proper name!

Cassie wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I’m not sure why people keep suggesting the new cards will double. Jeff explicitly said he isn’t doing that anymore.

While it says that in the first post of this thread, there appears to be further clarification on the first page on the linked pdf (same post)

MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf wrote: Note: Because the original MEC damage effect will remain in play, Wizard cards will not be getting redesigned until all class cards are updated. This should be in the next year or so.

(emphasis mine)

It says the cards will be redesigned AND says when the cards are redesigned, damage will not be doubled. What is unclear about that?