TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

NightGod wrote: One huge concern I have with this is that, by leaving in the damage doubling, all we're going to hear during the character card redesign period is "every point of damage you add to wizard spells is actually two points of damage because of MEC".

I hope there's consideration for that forthcoming mess.

Agreed...but I had to make a call...and given the "passionate" feedback I got...the assertive Wizards want it this way. I apologize if I made a bad call.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Justice wrote: I wish the wizard legendary path never included the MEC.

This decision has fundamentally changed wizards going forward.

Thematically I’m not in favor of the whole blood mage sorcerer /warlock feel of having to trade / channel life force into damage as a core tennant.

I’m going to trust Jeff and in his direction. I’m going to hold my judgement for game balance.

My wife and daughter love playing wizards but I for one, won’t be letting my young daughter play down this path.


My condolences wizards.

It might be nice for future years to add other class necklace relic/legendary for each class so they can cater to different playstyles. No idea if that would happen but that could be nice for classes like Ranger, Fighter, Druid and Wizard who have multiple counter playstyles that could each support more than 1 Legendary option

Agreed...and this has been noted. Thanks.

Ian Lee wrote: How does MEC interact with Crazed Evoker's Amulet if the CEA damage would kill you?

Good question. It looks like the TDB does not have a ruling on the CEA with regard to the Wizard purposely killing herself. We will add the "no killing yourself" rule to the CEA. So, you can't use either if you don't have the hit points do to so.

Thanks for the feedback all. Please keep an open mind and see how things work from here on out. I suspect you are going to see more rooms with multiple monsters -- and other ways the Wizard will shine. And it is possible (and likely) that some Wizards are going to go with a hp-build, but that will be at the cost of other bonuses. This should offer the Wizards lots of interesting build possibilities...especially when more Mage Powers are released.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks for the feedback all. Please keep an open mind and see how things work from here on out. I suspect you are going to see more rooms with multiple monsters -- and other ways the Wizard will shine. And it is possible (and likely) that some Wizards are going to go with a hp-build, but that will be at the cost of other bonuses. This should offer the Wizards lots of interesting build possibilities...especially when more Mage Powers are released.

My build that is 80% UR and has 3 relics and 2 eldritch and is focusing on HP boosting caps out at 63 HP currently. Based on this I get 2 uses of the Mad Evoker's Charm on my Relic and UR build MEC build Wizard.

As it stands today if this change goes into effect for the Wizards WITHOUT the character card redesign being made FIRST I will have to drop the Mad Evoker's Charm. It's not in any way worth using in it's current design.

IF you are insistent on sending this version of the token to print as written PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do the Wizard redesign NOW. Changing the MEC to the new design WITHOUT changing the Wizard card completely destroys every single existing MEC Wizard. No one will run this design. I can't imagine running it even at BIS legendary with this effect. It's WAY too much damage for WAY too little output and it's going to cause a massive conflict between Clerics/Druids and Wizards if they are now expected to heal 50HP per wizard per combat room. That's going to be nearly impossible at non Legendary levels for healers.

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

Jeff Martin wrote:

NightGod wrote: One huge concern I have with this is that, by leaving in the damage doubling, all we're going to hear during the character card redesign period is "every point of damage you add to wizard spells is actually two points of damage because of MEC".

I hope there's consideration for that forthcoming mess.

Agreed...but I had to make a call...and given the "passionate" feedback I got...the assertive Wizards want it this way. I apologize if I made a bad call.

I assume that 'passionate' feedback in private? Because publicly, it was everyone *but* active wizard players who were passionately pushing to change the doubling (and just doing everything they could to remove the 'canon' part of glass canon while keeping the glass as fragile as possible), at least from the threads I saw here in the token design forum.

The only thing I saw some wizards passionately pushing for was removing HP -> damage (or at least asking for some non-damaging options on the M/AM Powers). From what I understood, they were at least somewhat happy with the proposed class card buff helping to deprecate the value of the MEC, but now that's gone, too.

Because, honestly, from everything I can see, this is a pretty huge nerf of the MEC and, by extension, the class neck. I'll have to let it roll around in my head for few days to make a final decision, but my first reaction is that I just went from waking up this morning planning on definitely getting the Relic and waiting to see what the keyworded powers were to decide on the Legendary to now debating even getting the MEC, let alone the transmutes after. It's easily the least excited I've been for any of the wizard necks this whole development cycle (for whatever it's worth, I thought the version with the HP caps on it was about perfect for my tastes, but I know others disagreed).

Plus side, there's lots of new URs I'm looking forward to this year-it'e likely going to be my biggest year ever on that front.

NightGod wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

NightGod wrote: One huge concern I have with this is that, by leaving in the damage doubling, all we're going to hear during the character card redesign period is "every point of damage you add to wizard spells is actually two points of damage because of MEC".

I hope there's consideration for that forthcoming mess.

Agreed...but I had to make a call...and given the "passionate" feedback I got...the assertive Wizards want it this way. I apologize if I made a bad call.

I assume that 'passionate' feedback in private? Because publicly, it was everyone *but* active wizard players who were passionately pushing to change the doubling (and just doing everything they could to remove the 'canon' part of glass canon while keeping the glass as fragile as possible), at least from the threads I saw here in the token design forum.

The only thing I saw some wizards passionately pushing for was removing HP -> damage (or at least asking for some non-damaging options on the M/AM Powers). From what I understood, they were at least somewhat happy with the proposed class card buff helping to deprecate the value of the MEC, but now that's gone, too.

Because, honestly, from everything I can see, this is a pretty huge nerf of the MEC and, by extension, the class neck. I'll have to let it roll around in my head for few days to make a final decision, but my first reaction is that I just went from waking up this morning planning on definitely getting the Relic and waiting to see what the keyworded powers were to decide on the Legendary to now debating even getting the MEC, let alone the transmutes after. It's easily the least excited I've been for any of the wizard necks this whole development cycle (for whatever it's worth, I thought the version with the HP caps on it was about perfect for my tastes, but I know others disagreed).

Plus side, there's lots of new URs I'm looking forward to this year-it'e likely going to be my biggest year ever on that front.

It definitely seems like someone is sending private feedback directly to Jeff in an attempt to avoid Wizard players being able to respond to the reasoning in their attacks on the class.

I can not see any version of True Dungeon where a Wizard can sacrifice 25HP per round of combat. We already get complaints from healer classes with the 10 per round and 10 per round is healable via condensed healing potions and a pouch of Tulz.

At any level of gameplay where the boosting of damage from the Mad Evoker's Charm would be pivotal to defeating an enemy there's not enough healing available to allow them to use it more than 1-2 times.

At UR only level of gameplay a Wizard is likely to sit around 50HP even while building for +HP and +Con. Several of those +HP or +Con tokens are volunteer rewards and carry the cost of a relic to purchase.

At Legendary Level running on Epic giving up 25HP to boost Lightning Storm +20 damage vs a ranger/monk who can crit for 70+ per weapon or barbarian who can crit for 100+ or a Rogue who can sneak attack for 90+ all at no HP deficit. I can't see a party considering 25HP for an 11/18/20 damage boost is worthy of healing at epic.


What level of gameplay will this token see use where it's not eclipsed by multiple other classes at the same play level and where the healing exists to trigger it more than one time per room or more than 3 times per entire run?

The damage is WAY too high to be sustainable at any play level. Not after the nerf healing took several years back.

Seems like a whole lot of HP to be giving away for what wizards get out of MEC now...

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

When a Monk's FoB or a Melee ranger's 2 puck attack is Boosted, do both pucks get the full Boost bonus or is it somehow allocated in a pool among the pucks?

Good question! There are a couple ways to go here. How about we just say the spell damage is cut in half (rounded down) for each slide?

Jeff, that sounds good, or just apply it to one of the pucks. It would be good to do something similar to all bonus combat damage for Monks and Rangers instead of applying it all to both pucks.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

When a Monk's FoB or a Melee ranger's 2 puck attack is Boosted, do both pucks get the full Boost bonus or is it somehow allocated in a pool among the pucks?

Good question! There are a couple ways to go here. How about we just say the spell damage is cut in half (rounded down) for each slide?

I'd say just apply it to the Ranger and let the full damage attach to the highest rolling puck. Otherwise it incentives rolling it to classes like Barbarian over any other class due to larger +damage and x3 crit options

The Mad Evoker's Charm as written requires more HP than it gives in damage at EVERY spell level. The previous version gives more damage than HP at every spell level but 0. This is a massive change to the token and a massive downgrade in it's usefulness. I would implore resetting this token to it's original wording as the change would currently destroy it as a token.

HP may have skyrocketed but healing has not. It's been nerfed over the last 5 years to bring it more in line and remove the feeling of too much healing being available. The change in the design of this token will place an extreme burden on the healer classes in the party or the pocketbook of the Wizard in the form of a 2.5x increase in the number of potions that must be purchased AND will limit the in combat performance of the Wizard as a single Condensed healing from a Pouch of Tulz or double condensed from a Stu's +3 stein not does much less to offset the damage dealt for using the Mad Evoker's Charm.

While I agree that more HP is available in the game via equipment it does come at the cost of not equipping other tokens in those equipment slots. Punishing the Wizard players for choosing to increase their HP using those tokens by massively increasing the activation cost of the Mad Evoker's Charm leads to extremely negative feelings. Increasing the HP cost of the Mad Evoker's Charm results only in increasing animosity between healer players and the Wizard players using the charm as they are forced to commit signifigantly more resources to healing the Wizard than ever before and there's no net gain for the newly massive costs to the healer. This seems like an extremely bad idea if we want to keep players happy with eachother.