TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Mad Evoker's Charm as written requires more HP than it gives in damage at EVERY spell level. The previous version gives more damage than HP at every spell level but 0. This is a massive change to the token and a massive downgrade in it's usefulness. I would implore resetting this token to it's original wording as the change would currently destroy it as a token.

HP may have skyrocketed but healing has not. It's been nerfed over the last 5 years to bring it more in line and remove the feeling of too much healing being available. The change in the design of this token will place an extreme burden on the healer classes in the party or the pocketbook of the Wizard in the form of a 2.5x increase in the number of potions that must be purchased AND will limit the in combat performance of the Wizard as a single Condensed healing from a Pouch of Tulz or double condensed from a Stu's +3 stein not does much less to offset the damage dealt for using the Mad Evoker's Charm.

While I agree that more HP is available in the game via equipment it does come at the cost of not equipping other tokens in those equipment slots. Punishing the Wizard players for choosing to increase their HP using those tokens by massively increasing the activation cost of the Mad Evoker's Charm leads to extremely negative feelings. Increasing the HP cost of the Mad Evoker's Charm results only in increasing animosity between healer players and the Wizard players using the charm as they are forced to commit signifigantly more resources to healing the Wizard than ever before and there's no net gain for the newly massive costs to the healer. This seems like an extremely bad idea if we want to keep players happy with eachother.

This.

I'd add that the proposed design of MEC in this thread is usable only if the wizard is bringing an all-you-can drink supply of condensed healing pots with them to the fight. Seems like a recipe for disaster. I can see runs with folks getting angry at wizards for hurting themselves too much and taking up the healing.

Perhaps if the MEC cost was down to 10 hp this might be more usable.

The Mage Medallion Relic provides some nice options of effects in Quicken and Sharpen, assuming the Wizard player likes sliding spells. Bringing the Crown of Elemental Expertise into the options list is nice, but could use a few more elements to allow for greater diversity.

Fork is a great design but I worry about the limitation of it being damage only. That seems to me that it could be used as a way to restrict Wizards from Forking our strongest spells to a second target by tacking on an unwanted secondary effect. I would suggest instead saying the secondary target only receives the damage of the initial target but is not affected by any secondary effect. That removes the chance of double dipping in secondary effects without removing options from the ability.

Intensify makes me very unhappy to see as a Wizard. Spell Resistance coming into effect again in combat leads to potential MASSIVE wasted HP on a spell trigger that deals no damage simply because the Wizard has no way to know spell resistance is active before casting the spell. It also still gives a 25% chance for the spell to fail, which slows down combat and potentially wastes a powerful spell and HP investiture. And only affects 1 spell cast that turn, AND is only usable 1 time per room. Having spell damage return and having the class relic only be partially effective against it, and only if you know it's coming and only 1 time per room leads to situations where I, as a Wizard, sit out an entire combat, because I did my only 1 spell that can deal damage and it's not worth casting anything I know has a large chance of failing.


At the Relic level I do not see there being much chance that I ever use the Relic necklace Mage Powers more than 1 time per combat.

Intensity is situational, Fork is situational, Alter is situational

Quicken and Sharpen I see getting used together on the same slide spell in every room. Possibly Alter if I know of an elemental resistance or vulnerability specifically related to the only 3 damage options I have on that ability.

No matter what the situation I see this as my combat with the Relic.

Round 1
Quickened, Sharpened, Mad Evokered Scorching Ray (possibly Altered) at a cost of 35HP
Standard Action Spell (Magic missile, scorching ray, etc)

Round 2-100
Mad Evokered whatever spell is strongest.

The Relic no longer gives me any bonus over just having the charm.

The Legendary has the same problem.

I would suggest instead


Relic - Choose 4 Mage Powers, you have access only to these mage powers this run

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1 or 2 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.

Legendary - Choose 7 Mage or Arch Mage powers, you have access only to these powers this run.

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1, 2 or 3 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.




This gives the Wizard the ability to choose powers to match their playstyle and allows the necklace to provide a turn by turn bonus to the Wizard the same as all other class specific tokens currently do.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Mage Medallion Relic provides some nice options of effects in Quicken and Sharpen, assuming the Wizard player likes sliding spells. Bringing the Crown of Elemental Expertise into the options list is nice, but could use a few more elements to allow for greater diversity.

Fork is a great design but I worry about the limitation of it being damage only. That seems to me that it could be used as a way to restrict Wizards from Forking our strongest spells to a second target by tacking on an unwanted secondary effect. I would suggest instead saying the secondary target only receives the damage of the initial target but is not affected by any secondary effect. That removes the chance of double dipping in secondary effects without removing options from the ability.

Intensify makes me very unhappy to see as a Wizard. Spell Resistance coming into effect again in combat leads to potential MASSIVE wasted HP on a spell trigger that deals no damage simply because the Wizard has no way to know spell resistance is active before casting the spell. It also still gives a 25% chance for the spell to fail, which slows down combat and potentially wastes a powerful spell and HP investiture. And only affects 1 spell cast that turn, AND is only usable 1 time per room. Having spell damage return and having the class relic only be partially effective against it, and only if you know it's coming and only 1 time per room leads to situations where I, as a Wizard, sit out an entire combat, because I did my only 1 spell that can deal damage and it's not worth casting anything I know has a large chance of failing.


At the Relic level I do not see there being much chance that I ever use the Relic necklace Mage Powers more than 1 time per combat.

Intensity is situational, Fork is situational, Alter is situational

Quicken and Sharpen I see getting used together on the same slide spell in every room. Possibly Alter if I know of an elemental resistance or vulnerability specifically related to the only 3 damage options I have on that ability.

No matter what the situation I see this as my combat with the Relic.

Round 1
Quickened, Sharpened, Mad Evokered Scorching Ray (possibly Altered) at a cost of 35HP
Standard Action Spell (Magic missile, scorching ray, etc)

Round 2-100
Mad Evokered whatever spell is strongest.

The Relic no longer gives me any bonus over just having the charm.

The Legendary has the same problem.

I would suggest instead


Relic - Choose 4 Mage Powers, you have access only to these mage powers this run

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1 or 2 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.

Legendary - Choose 7 Mage or Arch Mage powers, you have access only to these powers this run.

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1, 2 or 3 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.




This gives the Wizard the ability to choose powers to match their playstyle and allows the necklace to provide a turn by turn bonus to the Wizard the same as all other class specific tokens currently do.

Giving the Wizard Free Action spells with the ability to cast two damage spells per round every round would be very overpowered. Even just allowing it once per room combines with the Cabal set to give it twice per room.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Mage Medallion Relic provides some nice options of effects in Quicken and Sharpen, assuming the Wizard player likes sliding spells. Bringing the Crown of Elemental Expertise into the options list is nice, but could use a few more elements to allow for greater diversity.

Fork is a great design but I worry about the limitation of it being damage only. That seems to me that it could be used as a way to restrict Wizards from Forking our strongest spells to a second target by tacking on an unwanted secondary effect. I would suggest instead saying the secondary target only receives the damage of the initial target but is not affected by any secondary effect. That removes the chance of double dipping in secondary effects without removing options from the ability.

Intensify makes me very unhappy to see as a Wizard. Spell Resistance coming into effect again in combat leads to potential MASSIVE wasted HP on a spell trigger that deals no damage simply because the Wizard has no way to know spell resistance is active before casting the spell. It also still gives a 25% chance for the spell to fail, which slows down combat and potentially wastes a powerful spell and HP investiture. And only affects 1 spell cast that turn, AND is only usable 1 time per room. Having spell damage return and having the class relic only be partially effective against it, and only if you know it's coming and only 1 time per room leads to situations where I, as a Wizard, sit out an entire combat, because I did my only 1 spell that can deal damage and it's not worth casting anything I know has a large chance of failing.


At the Relic level I do not see there being much chance that I ever use the Relic necklace Mage Powers more than 1 time per combat.

Intensity is situational, Fork is situational, Alter is situational

Quicken and Sharpen I see getting used together on the same slide spell in every room. Possibly Alter if I know of an elemental resistance or vulnerability specifically related to the only 3 damage options I have on that ability.

No matter what the situation I see this as my combat with the Relic.

Round 1
Quickened, Sharpened, Mad Evokered Scorching Ray (possibly Altered) at a cost of 35HP
Standard Action Spell (Magic missile, scorching ray, etc)

Round 2-100
Mad Evokered whatever spell is strongest.

The Relic no longer gives me any bonus over just having the charm.

The Legendary has the same problem.

I would suggest instead


Relic - Choose 4 Mage Powers, you have access only to these mage powers this run

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1 or 2 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.

Legendary - Choose 7 Mage or Arch Mage powers, you have access only to these powers this run.

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1, 2 or 3 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.




This gives the Wizard the ability to choose powers to match their playstyle and allows the necklace to provide a turn by turn bonus to the Wizard the same as all other class specific tokens currently do.

Giving the Wizard Free Action spells with the ability to cast two damage spells per round every round would be very overpowered. Even just allowing it once per room combines with the Cabal set to give it twice per room.

....... Are you SERIOUSLY saying this after getting FIVE Free Action spells off an Ultra Rare Ring? SERIOUSLY?

Tacking on to what was said about healing and party opinion, my party was solidly in the 'ehhh...' camp with the original design of things, acknowledging that it would be worth keeping me healed up for a big blast of damage or two when we needed it. With the redesigns, they have all turned squarely to a mindset of 'you're on own'. Our cleric's opinion matches with what I've already seen said: my damage output to heals required wouldnt balance and she feels it would be ridiculous to prioritize my wizard over any of the rest of the party who can do big damage consistently. Our other healers echoed her feelings. Not only that but seeing in the mage powers that spell resistance is a thing that is likely coming back, our healers agreed that if I pay the HP cost only for my spell to fizzle, I'm out of luck. As our cleric said 'why would I heal a self-draining wizard who's damage is either null and void or severely reduced when I'm pretty sure a sword to the monster's face is still just as effective as always'. I cant say i blame her but also, ouch lol.

Knowing how they feel, I feel like picking up the MeC is no longer a worthwhile purchase for me, and I am back on the roller coaster ride of yes or no to the relic and legendary. The powers are neat but the tokens give no static buffs that I saw, and do I really want to invest in a token where I'm cut off by party vote from its main use?

Likewise, if I don't go for the relic or legendary, will any of our pug runs be annoyed because I don't have access to them?

Overall I suddenly feel like my character class is very dependant on the wants and whims of other people, which has never been the case before.

Allen John wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 513 Lover wrote: Can some check the math on me for this? A new wizard in 2021 decides to spend $250 to get the MEC because it is the wizard token of 2021. Since they are new they are not level 5 because there isn't a way to get to 5th level in 2021 with just rares, uncommons, and commons. So using just rares, uncommons and commons. How high can you get their HP? I think it is exactly 27 if you have 2 rares from the set and 2 commons. I think it is 26 with 2 rares and 1 common. However the elf wizard must have those 2 rares and those 2 commons to get to 26.

I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. I am just asking someone to check my math and tokens finding skills of the 2021 token set. I only see 4 tokens that affect HP at less than Ultra Rare level.
Belt of the Sweetwoods +1 Con (4hp), Ale Drinker's Bead +3hp, Medallion of Charmed Life +3hp (assuming only the MEC is worn in the charm slot and no other charms), and Ioun Stone Granite Ovoid +1hp. Again not saying this is good or bad just looking for a check that I didn't miss a token or that my math is wrong.

This hypothetical seems *really* unlikely to me. First, you need someone who's starting with 0, looking to spend $250 on tokens, and *only* $250 on tokens (because much more than that can get you the Relic that comes with actual useful abilities for this new wizards). How are they getting hooked? Are they running this by anyone on the forums? If so, the forumites are 100% going to tell them that any UR other than a Treasure Enhancer is a waste of money and they're going to buy the nugget. Are they looking at the token list on TD's website? If so, why would they pick a token that's going to kill them every time they use it? If they just want to buff every spell, there's Pants of Focus to do it for free. If they want to cast more spells, there's Ring of Expertise. If they just want to do a big number of damage, the Spectacles will do that - again, at a cost of zero HP.

I really don't see the scenario in which anyone who can't use a Mad Evoker's Charm goes out of their way to buy one.

The number of people whose first order is for $250 would surprise you. My first order was for $250 only having played once so I have a start pack and 3 pulls. I also did not deal with the forums until well after a couple years of playing. I think your saying it is unlikely is not based in fact but speculation. I admit I haven’t a clue how likely it is. I know thatit is more likely than you think. Again I didn’t say it was a good thing or a bad thing, I just wanted someone to check my math and token finding skills.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

Kitkumi wrote: Tacking on to what was said about healing and party opinion, my party was solidly in the 'ehhh...' camp with the original design of things, acknowledging that it would be worth keeping me healed up for a big blast of damage or two when we needed it. With the redesigns, they have all turned squarely to a mindset of 'you're on own'. Our cleric's opinion matches with what I've already seen said: my damage output to heals required wouldnt balance and she feels it would be ridiculous to prioritize my wizard over any of the rest of the party who can do big damage consistently. Our other healers echoed her feelings. Not only that but seeing in the mage powers that spell resistance is a thing that is likely coming back, our healers agreed that if I pay the HP cost only for my spell to fizzle, I'm out of luck. As our cleric said 'why would I heal a self-draining wizard who's damage is either null and void or severely reduced when I'm pretty sure a sword to the monster's face is still just as effective as always'. I cant say i blame her but also, ouch lol.

Knowing how they feel, I feel like picking up the MeC is no longer a worthwhile purchase for me, and I am back on the roller coaster ride of yes or no to the relic and legendary. The powers are neat but the tokens give no static buffs that I saw, and do I really want to invest in a token where I'm cut off by party vote from its main use?

Likewise, if I don't go for the relic or legendary, will any of our pug runs be annoyed because I don't have access to them?

Overall I suddenly feel like my character class is very dependant on the wants and whims of other people, which has never been the case before.

+1

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.

It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.

Mike Steele wrote:
It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.

Yeah I don’t know that he was referring to the MEC but the Relic and Legendary. There is 1 spell that they each can cast to affect all targets in a room.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.

It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.

1 spell per room.

Fighter Legendary gives them cleave attack every single attack.