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Dave
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Away
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11th Level
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Supporter
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Posts: 3755
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Matthew Hayward wrote: Dave wrote: With a little more time to think about these tokens, here's my current take.
MEC is mostly (not completely) nerfed. The cost to damage ratio got a lot worse. I can see using it 2-3 times at most per dungeon, but only on level 2 or level 3 spells. I just can't see squeezing 11 more pts onto a magic missile and taking a 25 pt hit (and I was in the camp of willing to take 10 pts of damage for another 6)
Yes, there are dozens and dozens of tokens that can raise hp, but as I've stated multiple times, equipping them comes with a cost somewhere else. Losing the neck slot to the legendary was already looking to cost me 10 hp from this year's build. Now it looks like the whole design has made hp as valuable a commodity as focus damage. A lot of math is going to be needed to find the right balance. I'm thinking a wizard will need to go into a nightmare or epic dungeon with at least 70-80 hp in order to maximize effectiveness. At best, focus damage will be around 30, possibly a point or two less. I'm thinking 26 and then 4 from the Bard. If you don't have a bard in your group, you'll be around 26.
Consider the new MEC. A number of people thought it was an overpowered and almost "broken" token as it was. I disagree, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. If I look at it now, if I was a new wizard starting out, what would be my target UR level tokens. Ring of Spell Storing for sure. If I could find them, the Cabal set absolutely. I'm thinking Crown of Expertise now moves ahead of MEC. Cloak of the Elm, just for the required hp is needed before considering MEC. Semi-lich Skull (if you have 5 or more teeth) is about even with MEC. With all the good ring slot items, Charm of Glory might rank higher. Charm of Spell Swapping is also now probably better. And if you don't go with the relic or legendary, then Charm Necklace would be above MEC, or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. At best, new MEC would rank 6th or 7th on the list of desirable wizard tokens, and possibly as low as 10th.
Removing the intelligence requirement is nice, but at a legendary level almost all wizards would have the starhide or sunhide robe, so that really doesn't help at all, it just slightly nerfs those tokens as well (certainly it devalues them a touch). So...does all of the above mean I'm upset over new MEC? Not that much. I plan to at least get the relic, if not legendary, so it's just an add-on ability that I'll use a couple of times a dungeon. It probably hurts people more who are just at the UR level in their builds with only a relic or two and possibly a couple of eldritch items.
One last comment about the new wizard strategy. With hp more valuable than ever, players seriously need to consider ways to conserve hp loss. That means you can't let your save totals get too low and means to mitigate taking damage get more importance. I absolutely would now take Ring of Supreme Elemental Command over Greater Ring of Focus. On average, I probably take 30-40 less hp of damage over the course of dungeon. That's a lot damage to give up for a few more points of damage per spell. That's the cost of 6-8 uses of mage or arch-mage power. So, a wizard will need to watch that area. In other words, truly glass wizards won't get very far and end up dealing a lot less damage than they think.
Onto the mage powers
Alter - Kind of nice, but don't see it getting a lot of use. I can already cast shock or fire spells as an elf wizard, so only cold will help. It would usually add something like 5 more pts of damage at a cost of taking 5 pts of damage. It looks like a nice add, but will only occasionally get used.
Fork - This is really nice. I can see using this in every room that has more than one monster. It suddenly occurs to me that maybe I shouldn't say anything nice about any of these abilities. The chances are they will then cause an outcry and get nerfed. if that happens, I will throw in the towel and just give up on this class. If I read this one right, if cast a magic missile with 30 bonus damage, I can do 41 points of damage to two monsters. That's a 41 point damage boost for a cost of 5 hp. I like this one a lot and it almost makes the relic worth it alone. Unless, of course, I'm reading it wrong.
Intensify - I guess this will be useful, but I'm sad to think spell resistance might be making a comeback in more dungeons. As an occasional wizard nerf, I'm fine with it. But if we start running into this in every dungeon, yuck. You better start adjusting damage estimates if that's the case. It will impact wizards a lot.
Quicken - I like this one so much that I'm afraid to say anything. Since its an instant action, I still get a standard action and a free action. That means I can use Ring of Spells Storing, Quicken and my standard action to cast three spells in a single round. This will likely get me up over 150 damage in one round (3 Fireballs with base 20 and 30 bonus). If this gets changed, I will be upset. Adding "cannon" back into the "glass cannon" aspect of the wizard was high on my wish list. I'll be very sad if this gets nerfed. And you're really only going to be able to do 3 Level 3 spells in one round once per dungeon.
Sharpen - This is nice. It only affects slide spells, so that's only a few times per dungeon. I really don't see wizards hitting a crit all that often and it does come with a cost to use. But if you do hit with the spell, it will seem like a big deal. I see this possibly changing the strategy of some wizards that don't like slide. It comes with a potential downside, but the upside is tempting.
In summary, I like the relic. It occupies and important neck slot, but I think it gives back enough to make it worth the transmute. MEC is just a nice add on that you can use maybe in the final room.
Arch-Mage abilities.
Absorb - Given the importance of hp, I can see this getting used. It definitely makes Charm of Spell Swapping a must have item to give you enough spells to use this once or twice.
Assure - It's situational, but could be very useful. You may have some dungeons where this will never come into play, but when its needed, it will be very nice to have.
Boost - I can definitely see using this. At nightmare level, most melee classes hit at a very high percentage. A barbarian using Fury comes to mind as one good choice. This one is nice for the whole party. I can see using this often.
Conserve - This one is very useful, especially when you consider Aborb. The two balance each other nicely.
In summary, Boost and Conserve make the legendary worth getting. Absorb and Assure are also nice.
On the whole, I'm very happy with the new wizard relic and legendary. MEC is mostly nerfed, but what you've given back is interesting and fun. I'm very much looking forward to the new wizard. As long as you don't nerf Quicken, I can be that cannon once or twice a dungeon. On the whole, I think these tokens will slightly boost average wizard damage (some loss of bonus spell damage will offset some of these gains). I think I'm getting a moderate boost in that one round per game, but at a risk of it getting nerfed by an assumed increase in monster spell resistance (so for all of those who will jump on this and calculate some massive number, back it off 25% for the chance of it equaling 0). Most of all I think this will increase my overall "fun" level of playing this class.
On the negative side, the nerfing of MEC probably hurts those most with a hardcore to marginal nightmare level build. If they can get to the relic level, they should be ok. On it's own, there are much better choices at the UR level than MEC.
Build strategies will now need to focus as much on hp as on spell damage. As I've stated before, I'll be running a lot of numbers to try and optimize that balance. Some of the mage and archmage powers are very nice, but will require hp resource if you want to use them more than a few times per dungeon. Being guarded by a paladin takes on more importance and I don't even want to think about how many consumables I would need if I don't have a good cleric and/or druid in the party. So, these are my second thoughts on the token changes. I really, really, really hope the mage and archmage powers don't change.
Last thought. There are those in the camp who simply don't like the MEC concept of using hp to boost spellcasting. Those wizards might want to consider another path, because all of the mage and archmage powers are now also based off of that same MEC concept of losing hp.
Activating Quicken costs a free action.
Once activated, it lets you cast a spell and a free action, leaving you with a standard.
So you can’t use quicken and cabal set or ring of spell storing on the same round.
Yes, as Arcanist pointed out, I totally glossed over the part about using a mage or archmage power costing me a free action. So, yeah, that is a big negative that it can't be comboed with Cabal or Ring of Spell Storing. I'm really going to have to run a lot of numbers on this and even then there are so many potential combos that you can really only hazard a rough guess. My feel is that there is a lot of "coolness" potential in some of the mage/archmage abilities, but that the cost is going to constrict a lot of stuff we already have. I don't think overall wizard damage has gone up very much.
I do have questions for the clerics and druids out there. How much healing can you do? and how much healing do you think is reasonable to allocate toward a wizard? I don't mind using a consumable or two during run, but with the number or runs I do, I'd run of distilled potions of healing within a year if I started using those multiple times a run. Healing is a variable needed to calculate how much damage can be done.
Just doing a quick review of where things look. I'll assume bonus spell damage is 30 using new tokens.
MEC - 0 additional damage, +15 hp cost
Alter - +5 additional damage is what I normally see, +5 hp cost
Fork - +41 additional damage if I assume magic missile, +5 hp cost (if comboed with MEC, +52 additional damage, +30 additional cost). Although, in a multiple monster room I'm inclined to use a Fireball, but then I'm only getting +30 additional damage as the base would already go against all monsters. It would go to +50 if comboed with MEC. If I consider that I could have used Cabal Set or Ring of Spell Storing instead, then I'm not sure I'm getting any extra damage from this ability.
Intensify - unknown. implies that spell resistance will become more common, which will significantly lower average wizard damage. With a +5 cost you can mitigate some of the lost damage. Have to assume the net effect here will be less damage, but totally unknown how much. Depends upon how much SR use increases.
Sharpen - Assume a 15% chance this will hit and a 5% chance you miss completely, so the net effect is a 10% boost in average damage on just the slide spells at cost of 5 hp each time.
Absorb - No direct additional damage, but reduces damage taken at the cost of giving up a spell.
Assure - Impact is unknown. It will help spells "hit", but only if you are failing saving throws. This might help mitigate some lower save numbers at a cost of 5 hp. If you generally make your saving throws or can mitigate them through psychic (will) or figurines (reflex or fortitude), then this has minimal benefit.
Boost - Assuming you cast a fireball, you can add 20 damage to an ally (40 if comboed with MEC). But it does cost you 5 hp (or 30 hp) and like all other mage/archmage powers costs you a free action.
So with this third pass I'm a little less excited. I think the potential fun factor is still high, but very little has been done to boost wizard damage. In fact if spell resistance and/or conditions that prevent spellcasting become more prevalent, I would say wizards will be dealing less damage in the future. But then, that may apply somewhat to other classes as well. Maybe that's a good thing.
So now, it's off to run some numbers, but I think anyone who thinks they can just post max damage numbers for a wizard will be making A LOT of assumptions. I think numbers will apply differently to different types of builds and play styles and the best you can hope for is rough generalizations that still may only apply to that person. So anyone reading future detailed analyses, be cautious before you decide how they apply to you.
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