TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

jedibcg Banjo 513 Lover wrote:

Fiddy wrote: How about another approach to the 'glass' aspect? What if equipping the MEC cut your Max HP by either 10 HP or 25%, the Relic cut it by either 30 HP or 50%, and the Legendary cut it by 50 HP or 75%? I'm just throwing these numbers out as a starting point (and I'm suggesting that we would decide on either the flat penalty or the %, just tossing both in as possible alternative approaches). You'd still have Wizards with a reason to consider equipping HP boosters. You'd still have the 'glass' aspect of glass cannon. And the HP penalties increasing kind of goes along with the increasing decades of spending time spent in arcane studies leading to more and more degraded health (no matter how much work you put into it). While you'd still have the party concerned about keeping the Wizard alive, it wouldn't be because they chose to use their abilities or not.

Are you suggesting the with the OR statement a lesser or the two or the greater of the two? Just want to be clear, not providing an opinion either way just looking for understanding.

I was just bringing up both as potential approaches. I'd suggest that one approach be chosen, but maybe having a 'lesser of' or 'greater of' would be appropriate.

Leitz wrote: I can't even begin to address how stupid this change is. In fact, when it comes to designing and balancing this game you should really stop considering the opinions of whoever is giving you this private 'feedback'.

I have no issue with private feedback as long as it comes before cutoffs and that feedback it expressed to the community. Feedback after FINAL cuts or that is not shared is what pissed me off last year. I choose not to participate this year because of that. Though if Jeff and Co do want to take private feedback after the FINAL cuts obviously he has every right, but I don't know why anyone would want to provide public feedback before cuts if they can be trumped but post FINAL non-community discussed feedback. This comment has nothing to do with the MEC in general just the way token design happened last year and may (I don't know because I did not particpate) have happened this year.

As a non-wizard (usually) player but owner of 2 MEC they will be unequipped from my groups wizards when the change happens. They will have no use unfortantely as I cannot justify the 25 HP for + 20 damge. When the chraracter cards change, depending on that change they may get re-equipped. Relic versions may be made and re-equipped but I see no advantage to using this version of MEC on my wizard builds.

Without knowing any potential card changes that will one day come down the pipeline, I don't know if this idea is a viable one, but it would be nice to see a mage or arch-mage power that would allow wizards to imbue their weapon with a damage boost for the room.

Example, imbue ray of shock into the wizards weapon slide for a boost of 18 damage (damage of the spell) per hit while in the room. Or maybe just the first two or three slides, to keep it balanced. Even at +18 damage, on the higher difficulties that shouldn't overshadow most other classes, especially considering the attack would still have to hit, which isn't a guarantee. The wizard would still have to pay the health toll to activate the power, but a loss of 5hp is much easier for the party's healers to offset without frustrating them.

It wouldn't put the cannon back in to the glass cannon aspect, but it would:
- take some burden off the healers and ease possible wizard-cleric tensions
- open another path of damage for the wizard
- involve the wizard more in combat
- allow the wizard to diversify their token builds (HP wouldn't have to be as high of a resource if someone wanted to forgo the MeC effect completely).
- make it so they weren't completely shut down by spell resistance.
Edit - adding something like this to the mage power section would also mean not having to change the token plate. Just thought about that.
I'm just spit balling this out into the void, I realize a power like this would have to have a lot of tweaks and thought put into it. But like I said, I think it would do some good to help offset some of the voiced concerns here in the thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.

It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.

MeC doesn’t add to AoE damage. It’s a flat 3-20 as a pool, depending on spell and skill test results.

The relic’s fork ability could be used in conjunction with MeC on a magic missile for 11 additional damage to each of two targets for 25 HP (with skill test), or 18 additional damage to each of two targets on a slid hit with one of the level 2 ray spells (of which the elf wizard has one, human wizard two), once per room.

Dave wrote: Quicken - I like this one so much that I'm afraid to say anything. Since its an instant action, I still get a standard action and a free action. That means I can use Ring of Spells Storing, Quicken and my standard action to cast three spells in a single round. This will likely get me up over 150 damage in one round (3 Fireballs with base 20 and 30 bonus). If this gets changed, I will be upset. Adding "cannon" back into the "glass cannon" aspect of the wizard was high on my wish list. I'll be very sad if this gets nerfed. And you're really only going to be able to do 3 Level 3 spells in one round once per dungeon.

Activating Quicken costs a free action.

Once activated, it lets you cast a spell and a free action, leaving you with a standard.

So you can’t use quicken and cabal set or ring of spell storing on the same round.

My wizard, which is my main, is solidly equipped for HC and can run NM if he needs to/has a good party. By juggling some things around he has 36HP, which would let him use this once. At that time he'd need to soak up a decent amount of healing, which he was already doing because he doesn't have good AC and his saves are mediocre. I'm not going to burn 2/3 of my HP to get at most 20 extra damage, that'd make me a liability to my party.

I really appreciate all the work Jeff puts into this, I love this game and can see that it's a labor of love. At the same time I don't know who threw a private temper tantrum about the last design, it was fine. The Mage powers were a little lame, though all of that could and has been fixed, but the MEC was fine. I liked the way it was designed because it made it useful for all power levels, not just the super epic ones.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can

It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.

So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.

It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.

MeC doesn’t add to AoE damage. It’s a flat 3-20 as a pool, depending on spell and skill test results.

The relic’s fork ability could be used in conjunction with MeC on a magic missile for 11 additional damage to each of two targets for 25 HP (with skill test), or 18 additional damage to each of two targets on a slid hit with one of the level 2 ray spells (of which the elf wizard has one, human wizard two).

Matthew, you're right, my comment was aimed more at the Relic/Legendary than the MEC.

I think I figured out why I don't care for the MEC with current character cards. To use it on a 3rd level spell means that it does 20 more damage at a cost of the spell slot and 25 hp. That 25 CANNOT be overcame with the Cleric's 3rd level heal spell. So that means that using 2 3rd levels checkboxes nets you less than being able to cast the spell twice with a UR. The party would be down 1-4hp and if there are multiple targets in the room it does less damage.
Compare that to Ring of Spell Storing. Granted the ring slot is a more powerful slot than the charm slot, but you get a true 2 3rd level spells not pool when there are multiple monsters. It doesn't count any HP and the Cleric still has their action to do damage or heal someone else.

Again I understand that when the wizard cards change that could change but until then still MEC doesn't make my builds.

Thoughts:

MEC is now situational where the relic and legendary are designed to be used in every room. I only really see MEC being used when racing the clock to try to get in enough damage before the horn sounds. This is likely an OK change.

Hopefully the transmute cost from MEC to relic will not be overly expensive. The Relic or Legendary being the item you want in nightmare.

Druid just become the damage caster for those that don’t want to channel their inner energy into spells (sacrifice HP cost) and this might cause more contention for the Druid card. With that said the Druid caster is unlikely to do the same damage as a Wizard, particularly if there is spell resistance to overcome or more than one creature in the room.

For a 5 hit point cost I really like conserve, quicken, and fork. I would expect to see them used often.

Hopefully these changes allow Wizards to get nice things in the next round of token designs. An armor set for Wizards with +spell damage on the items and +hit points as the set bonus at UR level would be nice.

Edit: I will be making or trading for the relic for when I end up playing a Wizard (mostly for when Druid is spoken for).

OrionW wrote: Thoughts:

MEC is now situational where the relic and legendary are designed to be used in every room. I only really see MEC being used when racing the clock to try to get in enough damage before the horn sounds. This is likely an OK change.

Hopefully the transmute cost from MEC to relic will not be overly expensive. The Relic or Legendary being the item you want in nightmare.

Druid just become the damage caster for those that don’t want to channel their inner energy into spells (sacrifice HP cost) and this might cause more contention for the Druid card. With that said the Druid caster is unlikely to do the same damage as a Wizard, particularly if there is spell resistance to overcome or more than one creature in the room.

For a 5 hit point cost I really like conserve, quicken, and fork. I would expect to see them used often.

Hopefully these changes allow Wizards to get nice things in the next round of token designs. An armor set for Wizards with +spell damage on the items and +hit points as the set bonus at UR level would be nice.

I don't understand the comment about Druids being the damage caster now. Even if the Wizard doesn't use their Class UR/Relic/Legendary, they are still better damage casters than Druids. A 5th level Druid only has 7 damage spells (max 10 using Charm of Spell Swapping), none of them area attack. A 5th Level Wizard has 14 damage spells, which can increase to 16 with Charm of Spell Swapping, with the best one area attack. Once you add in the Class tokens it's an even wider discrepancy, since the Wizard tokens enhance damage spells and Druid's do not.

To be clear, I'm certainly not saying Druids should be better at damage spells than Wizards, as Wizards should definitely be better.

I would imagine the reason people offer opinions when their opinions may not matter at all is because they enjoy offering opinions.

Seems like few people have been playtesters for games as it's been my experience that it's rather common for people being compensated, aka paid, to think something will turn out the way they last saw it only for something to change after paid playtesting was done.

It's perhaps good public relations for a company to have the hoi polloi think it is the primary factor in determining how its entertainment goes, but there are always influences that aren't going to be made public. For instance, I'm a game developer. I put things in front of playtesters. Having been on the other side of things, I may want to avoid changing something after the playtesters have coalesced around some view of what they playtest, but I might talk to the lead designer and my inner circle of players and end up making a Final+6 change because the playtest process overlooked something. Hopefully, I at least notify that I've changed something, unlike other game companies that don't bother telling the playtesters that something was changed to where it's only noticed after printed.

For TD development, I realize what I want is often not going to happen**. In the past, I was more invested in the process for UR+. Now, I try to minimize my expressons of desire as it's just a path to disappointment. Rather, I still find it interesting to see how an alchemical rare damage wheel compares to previous years because that's not going to end up in endless threads that rehash and rehash and rehash.

** For instance, ... you know what, nevermind. Different people like different things.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote: With a little more time to think about these tokens, here's my current take.

MEC is mostly (not completely) nerfed. The cost to damage ratio got a lot worse. I can see using it 2-3 times at most per dungeon, but only on level 2 or level 3 spells. I just can't see squeezing 11 more pts onto a magic missile and taking a 25 pt hit (and I was in the camp of willing to take 10 pts of damage for another 6)

Yes, there are dozens and dozens of tokens that can raise hp, but as I've stated multiple times, equipping them comes with a cost somewhere else. Losing the neck slot to the legendary was already looking to cost me 10 hp from this year's build. Now it looks like the whole design has made hp as valuable a commodity as focus damage. A lot of math is going to be needed to find the right balance. I'm thinking a wizard will need to go into a nightmare or epic dungeon with at least 70-80 hp in order to maximize effectiveness. At best, focus damage will be around 30, possibly a point or two less. I'm thinking 26 and then 4 from the Bard. If you don't have a bard in your group, you'll be around 26.

Consider the new MEC. A number of people thought it was an overpowered and almost "broken" token as it was. I disagree, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. If I look at it now, if I was a new wizard starting out, what would be my target UR level tokens. Ring of Spell Storing for sure. If I could find them, the Cabal set absolutely. I'm thinking Crown of Expertise now moves ahead of MEC. Cloak of the Elm, just for the required hp is needed before considering MEC. Semi-lich Skull (if you have 5 or more teeth) is about even with MEC. With all the good ring slot items, Charm of Glory might rank higher. Charm of Spell Swapping is also now probably better. And if you don't go with the relic or legendary, then Charm Necklace would be above MEC, or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. At best, new MEC would rank 6th or 7th on the list of desirable wizard tokens, and possibly as low as 10th.

Removing the intelligence requirement is nice, but at a legendary level almost all wizards would have the starhide or sunhide robe, so that really doesn't help at all, it just slightly nerfs those tokens as well (certainly it devalues them a touch). So...does all of the above mean I'm upset over new MEC? Not that much. I plan to at least get the relic, if not legendary, so it's just an add-on ability that I'll use a couple of times a dungeon. It probably hurts people more who are just at the UR level in their builds with only a relic or two and possibly a couple of eldritch items.

One last comment about the new wizard strategy. With hp more valuable than ever, players seriously need to consider ways to conserve hp loss. That means you can't let your save totals get too low and means to mitigate taking damage get more importance. I absolutely would now take Ring of Supreme Elemental Command over Greater Ring of Focus. On average, I probably take 30-40 less hp of damage over the course of dungeon. That's a lot damage to give up for a few more points of damage per spell. That's the cost of 6-8 uses of mage or arch-mage power. So, a wizard will need to watch that area. In other words, truly glass wizards won't get very far and end up dealing a lot less damage than they think.

Onto the mage powers
Alter - Kind of nice, but don't see it getting a lot of use. I can already cast shock or fire spells as an elf wizard, so only cold will help. It would usually add something like 5 more pts of damage at a cost of taking 5 pts of damage. It looks like a nice add, but will only occasionally get used.

Fork - This is really nice. I can see using this in every room that has more than one monster. It suddenly occurs to me that maybe I shouldn't say anything nice about any of these abilities. The chances are they will then cause an outcry and get nerfed. if that happens, I will throw in the towel and just give up on this class. If I read this one right, if cast a magic missile with 30 bonus damage, I can do 41 points of damage to two monsters. That's a 41 point damage boost for a cost of 5 hp. I like this one a lot and it almost makes the relic worth it alone. Unless, of course, I'm reading it wrong.

Intensify - I guess this will be useful, but I'm sad to think spell resistance might be making a comeback in more dungeons. As an occasional wizard nerf, I'm fine with it. But if we start running into this in every dungeon, yuck. You better start adjusting damage estimates if that's the case. It will impact wizards a lot.

Quicken - I like this one so much that I'm afraid to say anything. Since its an instant action, I still get a standard action and a free action. That means I can use Ring of Spells Storing, Quicken and my standard action to cast three spells in a single round. This will likely get me up over 150 damage in one round (3 Fireballs with base 20 and 30 bonus). If this gets changed, I will be upset. Adding "cannon" back into the "glass cannon" aspect of the wizard was high on my wish list. I'll be very sad if this gets nerfed. And you're really only going to be able to do 3 Level 3 spells in one round once per dungeon.

Sharpen - This is nice. It only affects slide spells, so that's only a few times per dungeon. I really don't see wizards hitting a crit all that often and it does come with a cost to use. But if you do hit with the spell, it will seem like a big deal. I see this possibly changing the strategy of some wizards that don't like slide. It comes with a potential downside, but the upside is tempting.

In summary, I like the relic. It occupies and important neck slot, but I think it gives back enough to make it worth the transmute. MEC is just a nice add on that you can use maybe in the final room.

Arch-Mage abilities.
Absorb - Given the importance of hp, I can see this getting used. It definitely makes Charm of Spell Swapping a must have item to give you enough spells to use this once or twice.

Assure - It's situational, but could be very useful. You may have some dungeons where this will never come into play, but when its needed, it will be very nice to have.

Boost - I can definitely see using this. At nightmare level, most melee classes hit at a very high percentage. A barbarian using Fury comes to mind as one good choice. This one is nice for the whole party. I can see using this often.

Conserve - This one is very useful, especially when you consider Aborb. The two balance each other nicely.

In summary, Boost and Conserve make the legendary worth getting. Absorb and Assure are also nice.

On the whole, I'm very happy with the new wizard relic and legendary. MEC is mostly nerfed, but what you've given back is interesting and fun. I'm very much looking forward to the new wizard. As long as you don't nerf Quicken, I can be that cannon once or twice a dungeon. On the whole, I think these tokens will slightly boost average wizard damage (some loss of bonus spell damage will offset some of these gains). I think I'm getting a moderate boost in that one round per game, but at a risk of it getting nerfed by an assumed increase in monster spell resistance (so for all of those who will jump on this and calculate some massive number, back it off 25% for the chance of it equaling 0). Most of all I think this will increase my overall "fun" level of playing this class.

On the negative side, the nerfing of MEC probably hurts those most with a hardcore to marginal nightmare level build. If they can get to the relic level, they should be ok. On it's own, there are much better choices at the UR level than MEC.

Build strategies will now need to focus as much on hp as on spell damage. As I've stated before, I'll be running a lot of numbers to try and optimize that balance. Some of the mage and archmage powers are very nice, but will require hp resource if you want to use them more than a few times per dungeon. Being guarded by a paladin takes on more importance and I don't even want to think about how many consumables I would need if I don't have a good cleric and/or druid in the party. So, these are my second thoughts on the token changes. I really, really, really hope the mage and archmage powers don't change.

Last thought. There are those in the camp who simply don't like the MEC concept of using hp to boost spellcasting. Those wizards might want to consider another path, because all of the mage and archmage powers are now also based off of that same MEC concept of losing hp.

Activating Quicken costs a free action.

Once activated, it lets you cast a spell and a free action, leaving you with a standard.

So you can’t use quicken and cabal set or ring of spell storing on the same round.

Yes, as Arcanist pointed out, I totally glossed over the part about using a mage or archmage power costing me a free action. So, yeah, that is a big negative that it can't be comboed with Cabal or Ring of Spell Storing. I'm really going to have to run a lot of numbers on this and even then there are so many potential combos that you can really only hazard a rough guess. My feel is that there is a lot of "coolness" potential in some of the mage/archmage abilities, but that the cost is going to constrict a lot of stuff we already have. I don't think overall wizard damage has gone up very much.

I do have questions for the clerics and druids out there. How much healing can you do? and how much healing do you think is reasonable to allocate toward a wizard? I don't mind using a consumable or two during run, but with the number or runs I do, I'd run of distilled potions of healing within a year if I started using those multiple times a run. Healing is a variable needed to calculate how much damage can be done.

Just doing a quick review of where things look. I'll assume bonus spell damage is 30 using new tokens.
MEC - 0 additional damage, +15 hp cost

Alter - +5 additional damage is what I normally see, +5 hp cost

Fork - +41 additional damage if I assume magic missile, +5 hp cost (if comboed with MEC, +52 additional damage, +30 additional cost). Although, in a multiple monster room I'm inclined to use a Fireball, but then I'm only getting +30 additional damage as the base would already go against all monsters. It would go to +50 if comboed with MEC. If I consider that I could have used Cabal Set or Ring of Spell Storing instead, then I'm not sure I'm getting any extra damage from this ability.

Intensify - unknown. implies that spell resistance will become more common, which will significantly lower average wizard damage. With a +5 cost you can mitigate some of the lost damage. Have to assume the net effect here will be less damage, but totally unknown how much. Depends upon how much SR use increases.

Sharpen - Assume a 15% chance this will hit and a 5% chance you miss completely, so the net effect is a 10% boost in average damage on just the slide spells at cost of 5 hp each time.

Absorb - No direct additional damage, but reduces damage taken at the cost of giving up a spell.

Assure - Impact is unknown. It will help spells "hit", but only if you are failing saving throws. This might help mitigate some lower save numbers at a cost of 5 hp. If you generally make your saving throws or can mitigate them through psychic (will) or figurines (reflex or fortitude), then this has minimal benefit.

Boost - Assuming you cast a fireball, you can add 20 damage to an ally (40 if comboed with MEC). But it does cost you 5 hp (or 30 hp) and like all other mage/archmage powers costs you a free action.

So with this third pass I'm a little less excited. I think the potential fun factor is still high, but very little has been done to boost wizard damage. In fact if spell resistance and/or conditions that prevent spellcasting become more prevalent, I would say wizards will be dealing less damage in the future. But then, that may apply somewhat to other classes as well. Maybe that's a good thing.

So now, it's off to run some numbers, but I think anyone who thinks they can just post max damage numbers for a wizard will be making A LOT of assumptions. I think numbers will apply differently to different types of builds and play styles and the best you can hope for is rough generalizations that still may only apply to that person. So anyone reading future detailed analyses, be cautious before you decide how they apply to you.