TOPIC: Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i really think you should have waited to post this until a change (if it happens/ happened) to the wizards. I think this might just make it a no for both. Because then every other class will make a post like this as well. it would cause a constant change to the tokens

Chad, Jeff said in the Token Development cycle that he would take a look at the power levels of Iktomi's and possible other Class Legendaries after the development cycle was over, and possibly make adjustments. I'm not posting this out of the blue, I'm asking if that is still the plan, and if it is when it might happen. I didn't want this to fall through the cracks. Personally I think there is a much stronger case for Iktomi's than the Wizard Legendary because as they stand the Wizard Legendary is significantly more powerful than Iktomi's (and as I said, that's my opinion).

I definitely think Wizard is weaker since it will primarily only do anything 1 combat round per room while the Druid will work every single turn.

Not to get into a Wizard Legendary debate, but it allows up to 6 different AMPs / MPs per room, so that can be anywhere from 1 to 6 combat rounds. Jeff also said that there would be additional tokens that gave more AMP/MPs to choose from. The MEC ability of it can also be used every combat round.

Sure, you can use the MEC ability every round and have up to six abilities, you just need to have a party willing to heal 25-55 damage to the wizard every round, in addition to what they may take from monsters. Are the druids volunteering to give up doing anything but helping the cleric heal the wizard?

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote:

Fred K wrote: T
+34 spell damage. Druid have 7 damage spells but can add another 3 with spell swapping and another 2 using expertise and ring of spell storing.

That is assuming everyone has the bracelets and you have 5 casters in the party correct? I know it is only a difference of 2 damage but just attempting to check the math. I might be missing something that makes it 34 without the other party members, which I think I am.....NVM found it. The pasted text says Crown of exp but you are using Cranston's for a plus +2. But you also say lightning storm is restored via crown. So I am bit confused on that.

I changed out cranston’s for expertise on the post but missed the recalcuation. I didn’t add any synergy bonuses for the cabal set, though. The figures should be off by 2 too high. That can be made up for with an earcuff of inspiration then losing some of the saves items.

Fred

Beertram wrote: I primarily play Druid and I love Iktomi's as it is the token I always dreamed of and it is the most fun token out there. I wish all of the other class legendary tokens were created more in the 'fun' aspect, and less in the over-powering aspect. If TPTB decide to make it better, yay for me. Either way I will keep druiding with it!.

I’m with you there. I’mmin the minority of loving the new wizard legendary even though it isn’t the most powerful item.

Personally, I would have preferred the rogue item have a smaller crit range but give old school rogue skills like read languages and using scrolls.

The druid’s item could be improved by going further with shape change abilities. Allowing flight, burrowing, flowing under things, turning into any natural animal, etc..

I think it’s damage level is off but not by a ton. If the crit range were 18-20 rather than 19-20 and the elemental limit were pulled, it would be balanced.

Bard, cleric, and ranger all had fun elements incorporated into them. Rogue got a second sneak so we aren’t just there to provide a backstop for other sliders after round one. I still think Druid could get a little more love.

Fred

Fred K wrote:

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote:

Fred K wrote: T
+34 spell damage. Druid have 7 damage spells but can add another 3 with spell swapping and another 2 using expertise and ring of spell storing.

That is assuming everyone has the bracelets and you have 5 casters in the party correct? I know it is only a difference of 2 damage but just attempting to check the math. I might be missing something that makes it 34 without the other party members, which I think I am.....NVM found it. The pasted text says Crown of exp but you are using Cranston's for a plus +2. But you also say lightning storm is restored via crown. So I am bit confused on that.

I changed out cranston’s for expertise on the post but missed the recalcuation. I didn’t add any synergy bonuses for the cabal set, though. The figures should be off by 2 too high. That can be made up for with an earcuff of inspiration then losing some of the saves items.

Fred

You no longer need Earcuff of Inspiration, as bard song now affects spells without it after the changes to the meaning of Ranged to include spells.

Fred K wrote: That can be made up for with an earcuff of inspiration then losing some of the saves items.

Fred

Earcuff of inspiration is obsolete now.
tokendb.com/token/earcuff-of-inspiration/
You get the bard bonus on spells, however that would be the same bonus the Druid would get so I left it out of calculations. Looks like 65 over 9 rounds (you could increase it by 1 by losing some saves and going with the Earcuff of Sonic Splendor). I put that about the level as the Poly Druid. If it it 9 or fewer total rounds this caster build averages more damage. If it is 10 or more total rounds (which if you do full combats in VTD 5 rooms of combat is definitely possible) the Poly has a higher average. So play which you enjoy more.

Jedi - the difference is the poly version will miss on some attacks, the spell version won't. At Epic difficulty, it really matters as you may miss half your attacks. Even on Epic, creatures with spell resistance or immunity are fairly rare now. My guess is on Epic, average damage (including misses and crits) is around 40/round. On NM, it should be roughly the same as your projections as you should rarely miss.

Fred

Fred K wrote: Jedi - the difference is the poly version will miss on some attacks, the spell version won't. At Epic difficulty, it really matters as you may miss half your attacks. Even on Epic, creatures with spell resistance or immunity are fairly rare now. My guess is on Epic, average damage (including misses and crits) is around 40/round. On NM, it should be roughly the same as your projections as you should rarely miss.

Fred

True but your average damn is the cap on your damage while the poly is a true average where it has the potential to do more or less damage. I will have to take your word that a +24/+25 to hit without bardsong is going to miss half of their attacks. I haven't paid attention to what the AC is on epic. On nightmare you only miss on 1 or 2 (with bardsong) that hardest to hit monster 30 AC. Taking the +25 version means you only miss on a 1, which should be a 1:20 chance. Meaning 20 rounds to miss 1 on average. The spell version runs out of steam after 9 rounds and cannot hit except on a 20 regardless of the difficulty.

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote:

Fred K wrote: Jedi - the difference is the poly version will miss on some attacks, the spell version won't. At Epic difficulty, it really matters as you may miss half your attacks. Even on Epic, creatures with spell resistance or immunity are fairly rare now. My guess is on Epic, average damage (including misses and crits) is around 40/round. On NM, it should be roughly the same as your projections as you should rarely miss.

Fred

True but your average damn is the cap on your damage while the poly is a true average where it has the potential to do more or less damage. I will have to take your word that a +24/+25 to hit without bardsong is going to miss half of their attacks. I haven't paid attention to what the AC is on epic. On nightmare you only miss on 1 or 2 (with bardsong) that hardest to hit monster 30 AC. Taking the +25 version means you only miss on a 1, which should be a 1:20 chance. Meaning 20 rounds to miss 1 on average. The spell version runs out of steam after 9 rounds and cannot hit except on a 20 regardless of the difficulty.

I think the highest AC I saw in our Epic run was a 40?

So +24/+25 to hit pre-bardsong should be looking at +28/29 to hit in an Epic run.

So that should be hitting on an 11+?

Dice roll that follows statistical averages, actual sliding board I'd expect that's a 2/3 hit 1/3 miss against AC 40 as it's generally easier to hit the lower numbers on target boards than the higher ones, spacewise

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
I think the highest AC I saw in our Epic run was a 40?

What is average AC on epic?

There are also some rooms which restrict melee combat in one way or another, which needs to be taken into account when comparing melee damage with non-melee damage.

Mike Steele wrote: There are also some rooms which restrict melee combat in one way or another, which needs to be taken into account when comparing melee damage with non-melee damage.

Those restriction would affect all meleers. So comparing back to the paladin is moot.

There are some rooms that affect spell casters and some rooms that affect range. I don't think it is possible to equate these potential nerfs, that effect things at different difficulties to actual numbers. The same as I am not asking for a potential bonus damage from the elemental for potential monsters weaknesses.

So yes there are rooms that nerf melee combat. That does not change the token's strength when compared to other class legendaries, imo.

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
I think the highest AC I saw in our Epic run was a 40?

What is average AC on epic?

The epic ACs for DM were: 30,32,35,28/35