TOPIC: 2023 Re-Print Ideas

Guedoji wrote:

Flik wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Iross wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Please reprint the ingredients for Totem of Heroism, if you plan to keep it pirate themed it will work, and it would allow more of us to do more runs to continue to collect the parts.

AGREED.

This set makes the most sense to me as something a player could save up for over time, trading and collecting.

+1. I'd like to see them reprinted quite a lot - this gives newer players an easier way to save up tokens for their first Legendary, and it's another way they can achieve a level 5 character without needing to purchase multiple UR tokens.

I'm not certain "Legendary" and "easier" are supposed to go together.

I agree. If you leave these tokens in the treasure or whatever for XX more years then every single player will have one and then why is it even Legendary and why do other level enhancers exist after this?

No way, its going to take years to get this token for most players. It gives the people who can't run 20 runs a weekend a chance to get a legendary. It won't diminish other + level tokens that can be purchased for a UR price, it's extremely hard get get and extremely expensive as it's getting people playing tons of runs to get.

With current drop rates and assuming perfect trading and distribution it's about 53 runs to get the parts to make the legendary. That's $3600 worth of runs. I think there's an overestimation of just how much some people play True Dungeon. My party members are going to go on about 6 runs each this year, including both PTD and VTD. Some are going to do two all year. It's not exactly an easy or cheap token to get.

Viper Strike Belt
There's a Lute of WIdseths as well, maybe, a "Widseth's Theorbo" so it can't be used for the legendary? oh wait, i'm asking so I can use my belt for a legendary and get +3 dex and a set bonus still so why not just Widseth's also!

Josh M. wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Flik wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Iross wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Please reprint the ingredients for Totem of Heroism, if you plan to keep it pirate themed it will work, and it would allow more of us to do more runs to continue to collect the parts.

AGREED.

This set makes the most sense to me as something a player could save up for over time, trading and collecting.

+1. I'd like to see them reprinted quite a lot - this gives newer players an easier way to save up tokens for their first Legendary, and it's another way they can achieve a level 5 character without needing to purchase multiple UR tokens.

I'm not certain "Legendary" and "easier" are supposed to go together.

I agree. If you leave these tokens in the treasure or whatever for XX more years then every single player will have one and then why is it even Legendary and why do other level enhancers exist after this?

No way, its going to take years to get this token for most players. It gives the people who can't run 20 runs a weekend a chance to get a legendary. It won't diminish other + level tokens that can be purchased for a UR price, it's extremely hard get get and extremely expensive as it's getting people playing tons of runs to get.

With current drop rates and assuming perfect trading and distribution it's about 53 runs to get the parts to make the legendary. That's $3600 worth of runs. I think there's an overestimation of just how much some people play True Dungeon. My party members are going to go on about 6 runs each this year, including both PTD and VTD. Some are going to do two all year. It's not exactly an easy or cheap token to get.

58 runs by my math. Making your dollar cost closer to $3944. BUT! That $3944 is getting you a bunch of other treasure tokens as well, not just the bits for the Legendary (including on average 200 regular monster bits and 10 tokens that are UR or better - YMMV). And, you know, hopefully actually having some fun along the way as well.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Fred K wrote:

-Some of these shouldn't be reprinted due to being too powerful (or should be re-printed and nerfed a bit) - those are:
+2 Assassin's Crossbow (should be X3 only on a nat 20)

Nerfing the crossbow is really just nerfing the rogue legendary. Also the nightshade dagger would instantly become better, so why reprint if you are just going to make it bad. Besides even with the legendary token and some good enhancements the Rogue still is a lower level of the damage dealing classes at high level. Nightshade currently is better if you don’t have some legendary buffs.

Agree completely with this. If this change were made to the crossbow, there'd be little reason to reprint it as people wouldn't need it any more. And Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger is a much better token then it's given credit for - there's little to choose between it and the +2 Assassin's Crossbow for builds all the way up until your build is around the average for Nightmare difficulty.

Fiddy wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Flik wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Iross wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Please reprint the ingredients for Totem of Heroism, if you plan to keep it pirate themed it will work, and it would allow more of us to do more runs to continue to collect the parts.

AGREED.

This set makes the most sense to me as something a player could save up for over time, trading and collecting.

+1. I'd like to see them reprinted quite a lot - this gives newer players an easier way to save up tokens for their first Legendary, and it's another way they can achieve a level 5 character without needing to purchase multiple UR tokens.

I'm not certain "Legendary" and "easier" are supposed to go together.

I agree. If you leave these tokens in the treasure or whatever for XX more years then every single player will have one and then why is it even Legendary and why do other level enhancers exist after this?

No way, its going to take years to get this token for most players. It gives the people who can't run 20 runs a weekend a chance to get a legendary. It won't diminish other + level tokens that can be purchased for a UR price, it's extremely hard get get and extremely expensive as it's getting people playing tons of runs to get.

With current drop rates and assuming perfect trading and distribution it's about 53 runs to get the parts to make the legendary. That's $3600 worth of runs. I think there's an overestimation of just how much some people play True Dungeon. My party members are going to go on about 6 runs each this year, including both PTD and VTD. Some are going to do two all year. It's not exactly an easy or cheap token to get.

58 runs by my math. Making your dollar cost closer to $3944. BUT! That $3944 is getting you a bunch of other treasure tokens as well, not just the bits for the Legendary (including on average 200 regular monster bits and 10 tokens that are UR or better - YMMV). And, you know, hopefully actually having some fun along the way as well.

One other thing to consider is that the PTMs will factor into how many tinker toys get into circulation. When 100s of PTMs get turned in at GENCON more of the platinum beauties will see the light of day.

If 1,000 PTMs get turned in, that is 10,000 pulls with maybe 300 of the platinum bits. That is enough to make 7. For all we know, there could be many more PTMs available than we'd guess, though. It comes down to how many of the legendary Jeff wants to let out into the world. If he decides to keep the platinum bits in circulation longer, that would be awesome, so I will just keep my fingers crossed.

David Harris wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Flik wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Iross wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Please reprint the ingredients for Totem of Heroism, if you plan to keep it pirate themed it will work, and it would allow more of us to do more runs to continue to collect the parts.

AGREED.

This set makes the most sense to me as something a player could save up for over time, trading and collecting.

+1. I'd like to see them reprinted quite a lot - this gives newer players an easier way to save up tokens for their first Legendary, and it's another way they can achieve a level 5 character without needing to purchase multiple UR tokens.

I'm not certain "Legendary" and "easier" are supposed to go together.

I agree. If you leave these tokens in the treasure or whatever for XX more years then every single player will have one and then why is it even Legendary and why do other level enhancers exist after this?

No way, its going to take years to get this token for most players. It gives the people who can't run 20 runs a weekend a chance to get a legendary. It won't diminish other + level tokens that can be purchased for a UR price, it's extremely hard get get and extremely expensive as it's getting people playing tons of runs to get.

With current drop rates and assuming perfect trading and distribution it's about 53 runs to get the parts to make the legendary. That's $3600 worth of runs. I think there's an overestimation of just how much some people play True Dungeon. My party members are going to go on about 6 runs each this year, including both PTD and VTD. Some are going to do two all year. It's not exactly an easy or cheap token to get.

58 runs by my math. Making your dollar cost closer to $3944. BUT! That $3944 is getting you a bunch of other treasure tokens as well, not just the bits for the Legendary (including on average 200 regular monster bits and 10 tokens that are UR or better - YMMV). And, you know, hopefully actually having some fun along the way as well.

One other thing to consider is that the PTMs will factor into how many tinker toys get into circulation. When 100s of PTMs get turned in at GENCON more of the platinum beauties will see the light of day.

The number of Pirate Treasure Maps is irrelevant, in the same way that the number of total runs sold is irrelevant. Why - because the whole reason people are suggesting a reprint is to make this a token that a casual player could collect (over a period of YEARS). Casual players aren't going to be turning in close to 200 treasure maps. casual players aren't going on 50+ runs in a single year.

The Totem of Heroism legendary is in my opinion a total whiff from a design perspective. We have an effect that isn't needed by the only people realistically in a position to make one the "intended" way (collecting and trading). If this token had had a different power I would have a different opinion. A +level legendary would have been the perfect opportunity to design something for a loyal player at any level to collect toward over time.

As it is, this is a token for "whales". Rewarding "whales" is fine. They spend a lot of real money and provide this game with a lot of financial support. I argue that most if not all "whales" already have a "slotless" +level from two eldritch items and therefore have no need for this token other than to sit in a collection or sell it.

To return to the re-print reason for this thread - maybe the Ring of Heroism would be a better reprint. (Or perhaps a bead?) Make it a multi-year transmute, requiring completion tokens or monster trophies, or perhaps even both. And then - keep it in print as an available transmute forever, perhaps with a rotating recipe.

Dergidan wrote: The Totem of Heroism legendary is in my opinion a total whiff from a design perspective. We have an effect that isn't needed by the only people realistically in a position to make one the "intended" way (collecting and trading). If this token had had a different power I would have a different opinion. A +level legendary would have been the perfect opportunity to design something for a loyal player at any level to collect toward over time.

As it is, this is a token for "whales". Rewarding "whales" is fine. They spend a lot of real money and provide this game with a lot of financial support. I argue that most if not all "whales" already have a "slotless" +level from two eldritch items and therefore have no need for this token other than to sit in a collection or sell it.

I agree with the high level idea here, that the people that will primarily be building the legendary will be those that run a lot, or groups like mine that will happily pool treasure to build one and give it to one member of the group. The tinker bits should not be in the pool long term, because the whales or groups will continue to collect them and likely sell them. Given how the totem is basically the end game level booster being slotless, large numbers of them will only decrease the value of normal level boosters over time. This is undesirable on a large scale.

Dergidan wrote: To return to the re-print reason for this thread - maybe the Ring of Heroism would be a better reprint. (Or perhaps a bead?) Make it a multi-year transmute, requiring completion tokens or monster trophies, or perhaps even both. And then - keep it in print as an available transmute forever, perhaps with a rotating recipe.

I like the idea here, but making it a transmute yields the same issue where players and groups that run frequently will generate large numbers of them.

My recommendation would be to tie the new Ring / Charm / Ioun Stone / Bead / whatever of heroism would be to tie it to a player level reward. It still uses a slot, so there can be ways to incentivize players to upgrade past the player level reward item, but just playing the game would eventually get you an item to boost your character level. Somewhere around 7th or 8th level seems like a good place to introduce it, as with VTD its actually quite fast to get player levels these days.

Endgame wrote:

Dergidan wrote: The Totem of Heroism legendary is in my opinion a total whiff from a design perspective. We have an effect that isn't needed by the only people realistically in a position to make one the "intended" way (collecting and trading). If this token had had a different power I would have a different opinion. A +level legendary would have been the perfect opportunity to design something for a loyal player at any level to collect toward over time.

As it is, this is a token for "whales". Rewarding "whales" is fine. They spend a lot of real money and provide this game with a lot of financial support. I argue that most if not all "whales" already have a "slotless" +level from two eldritch items and therefore have no need for this token other than to sit in a collection or sell it.

I agree with the high level idea here, that the people that will primarily be building the legendary will be those that run a lot, or groups like mine that will happily pool treasure to build one and give it to one member of the group. The tinker bits should not be in the pool long term, because the whales or groups will continue to collect them and likely sell them. Given how the totem is basically the end game level booster being slotless, large numbers of them will only decrease the value of normal level boosters over time. This is undesirable on a large scale.

Dergidan wrote: To return to the re-print reason for this thread - maybe the Ring of Heroism would be a better reprint. (Or perhaps a bead?) Make it a multi-year transmute, requiring completion tokens or monster trophies, or perhaps even both. And then - keep it in print as an available transmute forever, perhaps with a rotating recipe.

I like the idea here, but making it a transmute yields the same issue where players and groups that run frequently will generate large numbers of them.

My recommendation would be to tie the new Ring / Charm / Ioun Stone / Bead / whatever of heroism would be to tie it to a player level reward. It still uses a slot, so there can be ways to incentivize players to upgrade past the player level reward item, but just playing the game would eventually get you an item to boost your character level. Somewhere around 7th or 8th level seems like a good place to introduce it, as with VTD its actually quite fast to get player levels these days.

It is quite fast. It had already accelerated a bit prior to the pandemic, got a bit easier with VTD, and hit full throttle this year. Someone that tagged along on Hardcore+ runs of all the dungeons that grant XP this year (V7-V11, R1, R2, and 2 new at GHC) would hit 6th level by end of year. Assuming a similar mix of VTD and PTD next year, could hit 8th by end of 2nd year.

I definitely like getting more different adventures faster. But having the ability to get into the L&L forum in your first year pretty much nullifies one of the intents of the L&L forum. Or at least what I thought was an intent (maybe I'm mistaken). That Jeff has a space to get feedback from people that have seen things evolve over a longer term, seen cycles of tokens come out, and have time to soak things in and internalize them. While going through different adventures gives you some aspect of seeing a wider variety, it isn't the only piece of variety in the equation.

Sorry, that went off on a tangent quite a bit. But my original intent was to say that tying character it to player level may mean handing them out quite quickly.

Endgame wrote:

Dergidan wrote: To return to the re-print reason for this thread - maybe the Ring of Heroism would be a better reprint. (Or perhaps a bead?) Make it a multi-year transmute, requiring completion tokens or monster trophies, or perhaps even both. And then - keep it in print as an available transmute forever, perhaps with a rotating recipe.

I like the idea here, but making it a transmute yields the same issue where players and groups that run frequently will generate large numbers of them.
.

Could this be solved by making it soulbound? Or as a player-level reward at lower level (level 5 perhaps, for theme) but also require a transmute? OR introduce a new level reward token as one of the transmute ingredients?

Maybe none of those work. I really miss collecting extra completion tokens and/or monster trophies in sets toward a transmute. Let's "reprint" that idea.

Endgame wrote:

I agree with the high level idea here, that the people that will primarily be building the legendary will be those that run a lot, or groups like mine that will happily pool treasure to build one and give it to one member of the group. The tinker bits should not be in the pool long term, because the whales or groups will continue to collect them and likely sell them. Given how the totem is basically the end game level booster being slotless, large numbers of them will only decrease the value of normal level boosters over time. This is undesirable on a large scale.

This exactly sometimes the whales are not individuals, but whale groups. Where whale level resources are spread to 10 characters instead of 1. So with a group of 10 perhaps not everyone has an Eldritch set, so a ToH is of immense value to the group. So I certainly don't think it is a total whiff.

Guedoji wrote:

Flik wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Iross wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Please reprint the ingredients for Totem of Heroism, if you plan to keep it pirate themed it will work, and it would allow more of us to do more runs to continue to collect the parts.

AGREED.

This set makes the most sense to me as something a player could save up for over time, trading and collecting.

+1. I'd like to see them reprinted quite a lot - this gives newer players an easier way to save up tokens for their first Legendary, and it's another way they can achieve a level 5 character without needing to purchase multiple UR tokens.

I'm not certain "Legendary" and "easier" are supposed to go together.

I agree. If you leave these tokens in the treasure or whatever for XX more years then every single player will have one and then why is it even Legendary and why do other level enhancers exist after this?

No way, its going to take years to get this token for most players. It gives the people who can't run 20 runs a weekend a chance to get a legendary. It won't diminish other + level tokens that can be purchased for a UR price, it's extremely hard get get and extremely expensive as it's getting people playing tons of runs to get.

Definitely agree that this should be kept in rotation. Maybe change the gears into something thematic for each year but just require a total of 40 unique ones. Unlikely most transmutes - this one really has to be earned over time. Bead of the Lucky Traveller and Orion's Belt were the other two like that (of relics - the old combo ones did it as well.)

If someone wants level 5 right away - go get a cooks hat. If they want a slotless legendary (and very cool if it was their first legendary), then the totem should always be an option.

I'd go a step further and have a COA transmute that could be done similarly (but also requiring 2-3 recent TEs).

Ultimately, we all win when TD grows its player base (both for growth itself but also to replenish those who decide to cut back or step away) and having treasure hunts like this definitely achieves that.

Fred