TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images! (probably)

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I really like the bead, basically makes the crowbar useless, but I’m fine with that. I was always passing anyways, I just sometimes took 10 damage to do it.

Oh, I don't know, I think the crowbar is still pretty good due to being slotless. There's going to be some serious competition for bead slots for Rogues - since two slots are pretty much locked by Bead of Bounty and Bead of Guided Strike, Rogues are going to have to choose between the new Beads of Whispers or Bead of the Lucky Traveler. Free movement is very useful to have, so I can see myself keeping Bead of the Lucky Traveler even at the cost of lower saves due to not equipping one of the Beads of Whispers. It's one reason I like the new Beads, they are going to force me to make a difficult choice and maybe create a bit of build diversity.

I like the bead transmute.

I might future proof it by listing the skill tests that can be passed, it could just say to refer to TDb like the Druid Legendary, and then say: lore, rogue box, damage and healing checks.

That way future designed skill checks can explore areas that might be too good otherwise (e.g. blinding an enemy with cleric searing light spell or something).

I think the relic bead auto pass could be 1/game and the legendary could be 1/room.

But it’s fine as is.

It should be noted that Bead of the Lucky Traveler is also a relic and gives +2 to saves and free movement - so +3 to saves on a relic bead is already probably enough.

For the boots, instead of granting permanent immunity to all those effects perhaps they could be like:

Ur - immune to each different effect once a game. +2 DEX.

Relic - immune to each different effect once a room. +2 DEX, +1 AC

Legendary - immune to those effects. +2 DEX, +2 AC

At that progression these could be the more modest recipe costs.

You expect multiple Maze rooms or multiple Petrification rooms or whatever? Rooms that do more than one of these effects? Maybe in Grind.

Making more complicated and sound less cool for what seems like no mechanical difference.

Ian Lee wrote: If I know I can get the benefit of passing whether I pass or fail, I will never take the time to try. Just never. There has to be some risk for any sort of sense of accomplishment (a motto perhaps a propos of a lot of other things in TD).

But, maybe can leave sealed pack runs for proving skill and let the people with UR+ equipped just bypass player ability.

I know that high end players tend to overlook skill checks a lot these days, so it seems to me that a token that makes it more worthwhile to play the game would be beneficial for player experience at the top level, rather than to be rewarded for continuing to ignore it. I of course don’t have a dog in this fight as my main is ranger and my wife’s is a Barb, just my .02.

Minor Cross post from the UR threads. I just tossed out an idea for a new sub theme - skillful focus that uses lower base focus levels, but adds more to skill checks.

I think there i may be a fair amount of new design space available for future tokens in this space, but then both auto passing tests and doubling tests shouldn’t be put on a token.

Basically, one of the big things with skill tests is they don’t scale with gear. There have been lots of asks to either basically get rid of them (auto pass) or have them be adjusted as part of the difficulty level. Why not have them scale, and use gear to do it? We might even see a whole new sub build type of player build - the skill check build.

Iross wrote: It's one reason I like the new Beads, they are going to force me to make a difficult choice and maybe create a bit of build diversity.

+1!

Endgame wrote: skillful focus that uses lower base focus levels, but adds more to skill checks.
...
Basically, one of the big things with skill tests is they don’t scale with gear. There have been lots of asks to either basically get rid of them (auto pass) or have them be adjusted as part of the difficulty level. Why not have them scale, and use gear to do it? We might even see a whole new sub build type of player build - the skill check build.

I really like the idea of Boaz's / Greater Bead of the Skillful Whispers - skillful becoming a keyword for "double or nothing" on skill tests. Worded such that rogues don't get 2 treasure. (Don't tell the guild I said so.)

(you could also scale it at Epic + Legendary Skillful = x3, but that starts to become a headache.)

Endgame wrote: Minor Cross post from the UR threads. I just tossed out an idea for a new sub theme - skillful focus that uses lower base focus levels, but adds more to skill checks.

I think there i may be a fair amount of new design space available for future tokens in this space, but then both auto passing tests and doubling tests shouldn’t be put on a token.

Basically, one of the big things with skill tests is they don’t scale with gear. There have been lots of asks to either basically get rid of them (auto pass) or have them be adjusted as part of the difficulty level. Why not have them scale, and use gear to do it? We might even see a whole new sub build type of player build - the skill check build.

My preference would be for Skill Checks to remain abilities from the party card, and for spellcasters to have a relatively minor difference between passing and failing. I've seen people get pretty upset about "failing" the group by missing skill checks with just the minor difference, I don't want more pressure/negative thoughts by raising the stakes.

If there's some sort of token ability that relies on passing a test of some sort, I'd think we could come up with a different name for that to differentiate it.

Mike Steele wrote: My preference would be for Skill Checks to remain abilities from the party card, and for spellcasters to have a relatively minor difference between passing and failing. I've seen people get pretty upset about "failing" the group by missing skill checks with just the minor difference, I don't want more pressure/negative thoughts by raising the stakes.

For the person that doesn’t want to let the group down on a skill check, they can currently build a “safe” wizard build with up to a +50 spell damage. (Passing skill check is only like a 5% damage gain). This will increase to a +55 spell damage wizard if the UR tokens stay as they are in the current version.

These tokens would be targeted at players that want a higher risk / reward.

Ian Lee wrote: You expect multiple Maze rooms or multiple Petrification rooms or whatever? Rooms that do more than one of these effects? Maybe in Grind.

Making more complicated and sound less cool for what seems like no mechanical difference.

No, but I do expect multiple castings of spells with skill checks.

Also, there have been rooms that maze multiple times, petrify multiple times etc.

Fighting Medusae making eye contact with the NPC petrifies you.

The end boss evil tree in one of the Rothfuss themed dungeons made you save vs. maze every round (or, had the capability to).

Bead of Whisper's Transmute path
I personally think the always pass skill test at the legendary will be problematic once the Relic is out of print and the number of Legendaries that can be created becomes finite. This to me is setting us up for another case similar to CoA where new players may not be financially able to invest once all of the parts are OOP or the relic transmute path times out. I feel like we will have players arguing for another token that provides the Auto-Pass for all skill tests, and there will be those that fight it for some reason or another. I think this should still be a limited use, or we should probably have some plan to release the Auto-Pass on other tokens/transmute paths down the road, if we dont move to a path of building relics that can fill the relics of yester year for older legendaries.

I dont really play classes with skill checks often, but to me this seems like we might be building another haves vs have nots fight, unless there is some way to address this with the class card rebuild.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: How often does the legendary bead auto pass tests? Is it all tests?

A one point bump at legendary seems low personally

Yes, all tests are passed.