TOPIC: Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round)

ini wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:
Thank you for your input. The Robe is meant to give armored spellcasters the choice of giving up lots of armor to be better at their jobs. The Wizard does not have as much skin in the game as the other better armored casters so this is not really a choice for them. It is too powerful to give to Wizards without a major AC concession. That's my thoughts anyway...wrong as they may be,

I totally get where you're coming from and I think it's a cool idea! I'm being the squeaky wheel here on behalf of a number of people - it's caused a lot of chatter and I apologize for being a pain.

Are there plans to create other robes in the future? As a last attempt to clarity why this feels so off and to summarize the main issues people have with it:
[1] The only reason there isn't a tradeoff for wizards is because there have been no viable robes printed for wizards in a long time. If you look back far enough, there's exactly one - Moonhide and it's upgrades.
[2] The assertion is that wizards are excluded is because they aren't giving anything up. If we had the option to give something up, there would be cool tradeoffs to make and I'd be interested in having those choices. However, there are none today. This feels really bad for the one dnd class known for wearing robes, especially in light of not seeing anything since 2017. As a concrete example, I've been playing TD for awhile, but never ran with anything more than a 10pack at Gencon. I barely knew URs existed and just liked being able to toss some spells and have a really cool experience. In the last couple years, I got more into building a character and doing the harder difficulties. For me to have a UR robe, I'd have to go to the secondary market and spend somewhere between $140-$300 for Moonhide or Starhide. I'm sure I'm not the only person in this situation. Otherwise, the rare robes in the slot are all pretty similar. For people playing on 10 packs and doing normal, it doesn't really matter that much to the experience. For playing at higher difficulties, there's no choice.
[3] I think folks are really mis-evaluating the value of that AC in slot. +4 focus is relic+ in power. I don't think the lack of it applying to 0th level spells really offsets it. People have wildly different experiences in runs, but I've seen plenty where people don't use their 0th level stuff at all anyways.

Either way, I hope you take what I'm saying here under consideration and I'm glad that there is this opportunity to discuss it.

Remind me early and often for a Torso slot option next year! We will get it done.

I wrote a long post about the Robe of Harmony last time, so this time I'll just say FWIW that I would still recommend removing the polymorph damage.

Bards get very little benefit from this token (only 2 Lv2 spells), and Clerics give up heavy armor for substantial extra healing but only a little damage. Dr.Uid (speaking as someone who plays the class frequently) would give up medium armor for effectively +4 to ALL damage; the comparison with any other UR torso slot isn't even close.

I did also like Fiddy's suggestion from last time around that it boost Turn Undead damage (which normally gets spell bonuses now, but is not itself a "1st-3rd level spell")

I'm going to rename the Robe to "Robe of Jeopardy" as the current name does not communicate its theme well.

Thanks.

Azzy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

ini wrote: Updated thoughts:

- Robe of Harmony is still super misguided. I don't want to restart the dumpster fire of the other thread, but please consider making it only healing or adding wizards. It's super janky as is.

All in all, the set looks pretty cool. I think there are a few really important things to address though.

Thank you for your input. The Robe is meant to give armored spellcasters the choice of giving up lots of armor to be better at their jobs. The Wizard does not have as much skin in the game as the other better armored casters so this is not really a choice for them. It is too powerful to give to Wizards without a major AC concession. That's my thoughts anyway...wrong as they may be,

The reason they don't have as much skin in the game is that they have only ever gotten 15 torso items printed for them, only 4 of which are UR+, while clerics and druids have 181 and 117 options respectively.

Wizards won't ever get the chance to make meaningful build choices if they aren't given choices to make to begin with- and it feels like magic robes are a great place to do this (for what it's worth, with all 15 of their current options they would still be giving up AC to wear these robes).

I agree that a Wizard robe would be an interesting token, but that is not what this is. This is an item that will cause a Cleric or Druid to break a set bonus or give up an extra figurine to equip. And while a Wizard could also give up the extra figurine to equip I sure hope the extra Int on Aaron’s makes it a slam dunk for Wizards after the new class cards. This is an interesting choice for Clerics and Druids and I hope it stays as is.

May I suggest Robe of Peril instead? Jeopardy has a very...specific connotation that comes with theme music.

Jeff Martin wrote: Remind me early and often for a Torso slot option next year! We will get it done.

I can do this. Can it be for clothies only, so that we don't have this issue in the future? I'd like to be able to have the tradeoff discussion un-colored by what other classes do/don't get. I want everyone to have fun.

OrionW wrote:
I agree that a Wizard robe would be an interesting token, but that is not what this is. This is an item that will cause a Cleric or Druid to break a set bonus or give up an extra figurine to equip. And while a Wizard could also give up the extra figurine to equip I sure hope the extra Int on Aaron’s makes it a slam dunk for Wizards after the new class cards. This is an interesting choice for Clerics and Druids and I hope it stays as is.

Quick thought - URs should not be competing with legendary tokens. If the intent is to compete with sunhide robe, then this should probably be a +2 at ur, +3 at relic, and +5 at legendary item.

ini wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Remind me early and often for a Torso slot option next year! We will get it done.

I can do this. Can it be for clothies only, so that we don't have this issue in the future? I'd like to be able to have the tradeoff discussion un-colored by what other classes do/don't get. I want everyone to have fun.

A Wizard's Robe in 2024 seems like a good idea. Let's do it.

Participation - Charm of Biting needs star border
UR - Ioun Stone Kyanite Cube needs star border

Phil

Given the robes only effect some spells, should the poly damage only work some of the time?

Ex, +4 poly damage 1 / room?

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:
I agree that a Wizard robe would be an interesting token, but that is not what this is. This is an item that will cause a Cleric or Druid to break a set bonus or give up an extra figurine to equip. And while a Wizard could also give up the extra figurine to equip I sure hope the extra Int on Aaron’s makes it a slam dunk for Wizards after the new class cards. This is an interesting choice for Clerics and Druids and I hope it stays as is.

Quick thought - URs should not be competing with legendary tokens. If the intent is to compete with sunhide robe, then this should probably be a +2 at ur, +3 at relic, and +5 at legendary item.

I would use Lucky or Death Knight over Aaron’s already so this is where we are. Aaron’s will come into its own when the Int is useful again.

Jeff Martin wrote:

ini wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Remind me early and often for a Torso slot option next year! We will get it done.

I can do this. Can it be for clothies only, so that we don't have this issue in the future? I'd like to be able to have the tradeoff discussion un-colored by what other classes do/don't get. I want everyone to have fun.

A Wizard's Robe in 2024 seems like a good idea. Let's do it.

I appreciate you hearing us.