TOPIC: Safehold Program Thoughts?

Seems like one the major issues with tokens, in general, which could easily become a problem with Safeholds is that the people who spend the most on tokens, who are already way ahead of the average player, will just get further and further ahead. If Safeholds are based on token purchases, they shouldn't mirror the benefits that Patrons are already getting (like special events). If Safeholds are constructed, like legendaries, then the people who already have lots of legendaries will be the same people who end up getting Safeholds. If they take huge piles of trade goods to construct, then they're just going to be one more feather in the cap for Patrons.

If Safeholds provide any in-game benefit, then, like every other aspect of power creep, the dungeons will just get harder and harder, to compensate for the power creep. I know Epic level was introduced for players who felt that Nightmare was no longer a challenge. But, Nightmare level had escalated considerably over the years. Sure, the average character does more damage now, but, also, Nightmare monsters regularly have more than 1000 hp, with high ACs and damage reduction or resistance, and things like retribution damage. It seems like a constant arms race to keep up. I guess the dedicated players and Patron-level token buyers are doing the most to support the costs of True Dungeon, but none of this seems like a good thing for newer player or for casual players.

I recommend that the safeholds be something the entire community builds but there also be an opportunity for the big collectors to take lead. We could have them be thematic with Grunnel's Keep, etc, GibGub's Monastery, etc.. Players gain benefits as the residents of the land of their choice at any time. Initially, "residents" can get ribbons or pins representing the land they choose to reside. The benefits of the safeholds increase with participation by the community and investments by the nobles (players who donate much more.)

Tithes and donations listed represent completing adventures for their lord (completion tokens), taxes (trade goods), and bribes/donations for favor (gold and items)
For example:
Grunnel's Keep
Level 1 (starting level) - Can support up any number of barrons
Advancing to level 2 requires the sacrifice of 250 completion tokens, 250 units of trade goods, and filling at least 5 Barron roles
Earning Barron rank - requires a "tithe" to Grunnel of 5 completion tokens, 50 units of trade goods and 1K in gold
-General Benefit: Anyone who wants to be at Grunnel's Keep can get a Grunnel pin that might have minor in-game NPC interaction benefits.
-Barron benefit: Commemorative pin with minor in-game NPC interaction benefits of being recognized as a noble
Level 2: Can support up to 10 Viscounts
-General Benefit: +1 treasure draws (up to the current max of 25 - so no benefit for fully maxed out players)
-Viscount benefit: Viscount pin and token, +1 treasure draws (no max), minor in-game NPC interactions benefits of being recognized as a noble (maybe slightly better than Barron), may appoint 1 Barron who doesn't have to tithe to be a Barron
Earning Viscount Rank: Tithe of 10 completion tokens, 100 units of trade goods, and 5K in gold
Advancing to level 3 requires community donations of 500 completion tokens, 500 units of trade goods, and filling at least 3 Viscount roles
Level 3: Can Support up to 5 Earls (or "Counts")
-General Benefit: +2 treasure draws (up to the current max of 25 - so no benefit for fully maxed out players), 2x completion tokens
-Earl benefit: Earl pin and token, +2 treasure draws (no max), Common in-game NPC interactions benefits of being recognized as a noble (maybe slightly better than Viscount), may appoint 2 Barrons who don't have to tithe to be a Barron, with any Patron level order they place they also get a set of proof-type common tokens for that year
Earning Earl Rank: Tithe of 20 completion tokens, 250 units of trade goods, 10K in gold, and 3 Enhanced/Exhalted tokens, plus 1 UR donation
Advancing to level 4 requires community donations of 1,000 completion tokens, 1,000 units of trade goods, and filling at least 2 Earl roles
Level 4: Can Support up to 3 Marquess
-General Benefit: +3 treasure draws (up to the current max of 25 - so no benefit for fully maxed out players), 2x completion tokens, Special completion token unique for this safehold can be ordered at the end of the year (no cost but shipping is charged, just like with transmutes)
-Marquess benefit: Masquez pin and token, +3 treasure draws (no max), Common in-game NPC interactions benefits of being recognized as a noble (maybe slightly better than Earl), may appoint 3 Barrons who don't have to tithe to be a Barron, with any Patron level order they place they also get a set of proof-type uncommon and common tokens for that year. May participate in an annual 1 hour conference (Zoom meeting) with both Grunnel and the King (Jeff) to provide suggestions for new magic in the lands (token design) and quests (adventure suggestions.)
Earning Marquess Rank: Tithe of 50 completion tokens, 500 units of trade goods, and 25K in gold, 3 URs and a relic.
Advancing to level 5 requires community donations of 2,000 completion tokens, 2,000 units of trade goods, 10 URs, and filling at least 1 Marques roles
Level 5: Can support 1 Duke
-General Benefit: +3 treasure draws (up to the current max of 25 - so no benefit for fully maxed out players), 2x completion tokens, Special completion token unique for this safehold can be ordered at the end of the year (no cost but shipping is charged, just like with transmutes.) For 1 in-person convention per year, the Duke of this Safehold may decree all players following Grunnel may get an extra help from goblin spies. This manifests as a single extra hint in a puzzle room or insight into a combat (bardic knowledge.) The goblin spy feature may only be used once per adventuring group per run.
-Marquess benefit: Masquez pin and token, +3 treasure draws (no max), enhanced in-game NPC interactions benefits of being recognized as a noble (better than Marquess), may appoint 5 Barrons who don't have to tithe to be a Barron, with any Patron level order they place they also get a set of proof-type rare, uncommon, and common tokens for that year. Automatic entry to the GenCon Golden Ticket run. Lastly, the Duke may consult with the King annually to recommend changes to the resident benefit.
Earning Duke Rank: Tithe of 100 completion tokens, 1,000 units of trade goods, and 50K in gold, and a legendary token.

All levels above Barron require 10% of the initial tithe (rounded down) annually to maintain rank. If you fail to make the tithe, you are demoted by 1 rank if an opening is available. If not, you are demoted by 2 (or more ranks) until you reach a level where a Noble opening is available.

+1 to Fred Guild idea, but I dislike the limiting of the roles. If there is a limit, it should be minimum 10 at all levels so a group can do it together.
I'd prefer most of Fred's idea but with a general guild membership rather than a pyramid to the top. Just feels like asking for power dynamic issues, as fun as it would be in a RP sense

How about:

All players always gain a survivor badge, even if they did not succeed.
All players always gain full Exp, even if they did not succeed.
All players without any UR+ TEs gain +1 treasure draw (does not stack with other Safeholds).
You gain +1 treasure draw.

Here are some suggestions to build off the earlier idea that Safeholds are there to create "mundane" equipment and the primary benefit is that you don't have to haul around a bunch of pack tokens on runs.

Safehold Common Rules:
Safeholds allow the bearer to equip Common, Uncommon, and Rare tokens with a source of Standard Pack without having to show the equipped tokens in coaching and without having to carry the equipped tokens through the dungeon. See tokendb.com for what tokens have a source of Standard Pack.

Safehold 1: Armor Smith. you may equip Torso, melee offhand, or head items.

Safehold 2: Includes benefits of safehold 1, and adds a Tailor. You may equip Shirt, Pants, and Gloves

Safehold 3: Includes benefits of safehold 2, and adds a Leather Worker. You may equip Boots, Belts, Bracers, Cloaks

Safehold 4: Includes benefits of safehold 3, and adds a Jeweler. You may equip Rings, Amulets, Earcuffs

Safehold 5: Includes benefits of safehold 4, and adds an Enchanter. You may equip Iouns, Charms, Beads

I'm unclear as to how not needing to carry tokens that can just be parked with bag check is a useful function.

I would also avoid anything to do with treasure, special runs, or ... hmmm ... pretty much anything people actually want.

Ian Lee wrote: I'm unclear as to how not needing to carry tokens that can just be parked with bag check is a useful function.

You wouldn't even need to bring them to a con, and avoids the whole rigamarole of "I've got to get to coaching, get everything organized, get the party card added to, run back to bag check, and get back before training"

Ian Lee wrote: I'm unclear as to how not needing to carry tokens that can just be parked with bag check is a useful function.

I would also avoid anything to do with treasure, special runs, or ... hmmm ... pretty much anything people actually want.

I mostly agree with this. Special runs are the only exception here I think, but that all depends on implementation, and is a minor point. (I think playtest runs could be an interesting thing to get access to via Safehold. e.g. we want to test adding a background token to the game, with this pool of tokens, build a party and run 4 rooms.)

The challenge is that people associate strongholds with bases and that all feeds into "numbers go up" type games. e.g. if I build Building X, I get more resource A/minute, which lets me build building Y, which gets me more resource...etc. Those games work great solo! It's a reliable hit of dopamine, which is why there are so many of them. It can be a ton of fun to watch your empire/base/outpost/whatever grow. It's also a skinner box and can be addictive in a literal sense. In multiplayer games, this almost entirely manifests as a gacha game or something that becomes pay to win very, very quickly.

TD already has a strong numbers-go-up aspect to it with gearing, but I feel like the difficulties and generally IRL nature of the game put a healthy damper on the numbers-go-up valve. I think adding a mechanic that encourages a ton of numbers-go-up behavior would be really unhealthy long term.

Safeholds could generate 10-packs as another low impact "get more" option.

I almost said could generate XP, but then I realized how much some folks would hate that.

The concept that somebody is a high level territory manager doesn't bother me. What that actually means isn't terribly clear, though I still tend towards TG generation as the least insane option that somebody might care about.

Endgame wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I'm unclear as to how not needing to carry tokens that can just be parked with bag check is a useful function.

You wouldn't even need to bring them to a con, and avoids the whole rigamarole of "I've got to get to coaching, get everything organized, get the party card added to, run back to bag check, and get back before training"

In addition, I present to you PHB page 56:

Gotta Bring ’Em All
Don’t forget, whether it’s your weapon token in a front pocket or your armor token buried deep in your backpack, if your character is wearing or intends to benefit from a token, you must bring that token with you and be able to show that token upon request.

I understand that a lot of people choose to disregard this rule, and that in practice there are usually no negative consequences for doing so, but the rule still exists until such time as TPTB either rescind it or officially allow for exceptions. A Safehold providing an official exception to this rule would be quite useful to me!

Allowing some higher rarity tiers / sources would make it even more useful, but even just standard pack C/UC/R as Endgame suggested would be really nice for people with large collections who still like to go on PUG runs.

Subdividing by slot feels arbitrary, though (and also not future-proof). Maybe all of this is just one particular safehold level benefit, and other safehold levels have qualitatively different benefits?

David Zych wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I'm unclear as to how not needing to carry tokens that can just be parked with bag check is a useful function.

You wouldn't even need to bring them to a con, and avoids the whole rigamarole of "I've got to get to coaching, get everything organized, get the party card added to, run back to bag check, and get back before training"

In addition, I present to you PHB page 56:

Gotta Bring ’Em All
Don’t forget, whether it’s your weapon token in a front pocket or your armor token buried deep in your backpack, if your character is wearing or intends to benefit from a token, you must bring that token with you and be able to show that token upon request.

I understand that a lot of people choose to disregard this rule, and that in practice there are usually no negative consequences for doing so, but the rule still exists until such time as TPTB either rescind it or officially allow for exceptions. A Safehold providing an official exception to this rule would be quite useful to me!

Allowing some higher rarity tiers / sources would make it even more useful, but even just standard pack C/UC/R as Endgame suggested would be really nice for people with large collections who still like to go on PUG runs.

Subdividing by slot feels arbitrary, though (and also not future-proof). Maybe all of this is just one particular safehold level benefit, and other safehold levels have qualitatively different benefits?

If safeholds ensured there would be no new slots, that would be the best possible outcome of the program.

As for breaking it up by slot, it felt a lot more in theme, and more useful at lower levels than level 1 giving access to commons and level 2 UC, etc.

OK, here is an entirely different suggestion.


Safehold 1: generates 1x treasure chip from the safehold treasure box per year. Costs 10 of each trade good, and 5000 GP.

Every level upgrade adds another treasure chip, but costs twice as much as the previous (no limit)

Safehold treasure is the same as the normal treasure mix, but includes 1 artifact recipe mixed in per year

There can be only 1: Limit One Artifact recipe drawn per person, lifetime. Existing Artifact holders included in the limit. This gives the have nots a path toward something.

Drawing are done at Cons at scheduled times so everyone can go nuts when the artifact recipe is drawn.

Recipes are non transferrable. When drawn, it is soul bound and registered to the person who drew it.