TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I would prefer that no Mythic tokens makes existing Legendary or Eldritch Relic tokens obsolete, with the exception of Treasure Enhancers, and potentially mainhand/offhand items.

By obsolete I mean there is no reason to equip the existing Legendary/Eldrtich token any longer, given the existence of the new Mythic token.

For example, the proposed Mythic +10 STR waist slot item will make Legendary Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength obsolete, since there is no reason to equip Surtr's Girdle if you can equip a mythic +10 STR belt.

To avoid this outcome, there are only a few slots to be concerned about: waist, neck, torso, finger, feet or wrist slot.

Every other slot either has no Legendary / Eldritch Token, or has/will have a way to equip a Mythic as well as every existing Legendary / Eldritch Relic tokens.

I'd focus Mythics on slots that either have less contention, or do not currently have a contested Legendary or Eldritch Relic token, e.g.:

First go after Mythics in these slots: Back, Bead, Charm, Ear, Eyes, Figurine, Hands, Ioun Stone, Shins.

Then go after: Head, Legs, Shirt (which will all gain the capacity to have a free slot with the Safehold program).

For instance, I believe a +7 STR gloves Mythic would be about as desirable as a +10 STR waist Mythic, and wouldn't have the side effect of obsoleting a Legendary token.

I'd actually argue the opposite. In my opinion there should be no Mythics created in slots that don't yet have Legendaries. Placing a Mythic into a slot before a Legendary exists in that slot can lead to oddities in trying to place Legendaries in later on on the balance scale. Kinda like when we got a Relic Bead when no UR beads yet existed and few Rare and lower beads existed for establishing the expected power level of the slot. Also, if the Mythic is first, it will be tougher to get players with those to later build a Legendary for that slot.

Just add Legendaries and their Mythic counterparts to new slots at the same time.

This year Gloves.

Next year Lenses.

The year after that an Ioun.

The year after that a Charm.

This could go on for quite a while before making choices that kick existing $500-1000 tokens out of builds while also devaluing them to the benefit of... who exactly?

I guess I'm not terribly worried about the potential to lower the value of the Legendaries as I suspect that the Mythics may require a Legendary to craft them. Also, I suspect Omni Cube and Omni Orb will do more to devalue existing Legendaries than the introduction of a competing Mythic.

Iross wrote: It might also be good to get a clear understanding from TPTB whether this is a conscious decision to have an insurmountable gap in power level between those who invest in safeholds and those who don't, since that's most certainly what the outcome will be of the program currently proposed. +1 to having a very general idea of the costs of the higher level safeholds, it's hard to have a concrete view on this without that knowledge.

This is a weird take to me.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players who play with their token 10-pack and players who've invested in many good rares in many slots.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players with good rares and players who have invested in many Ultra Rares maybe a choice Relic or two.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players with many Ultra Rares and a Relic or two and players who have invested in 10+ Legendary and/or Eldritch Relic tokens.

No matter where your builds are today, you are already insurmountably more and/or less powerful than other players. Safeholds don't change that.

The Tier 1 Mythic token powers (only able to be transmuted and used with Safehold I tokens) include […] allowing players to gain a stackable +1 level benefit making 6th level characters possible.

I haven’t seen this brought up yet, but I think locking 6th level player cards behind mythic 1 tokens will be damaging to the overall health of the game. I’m really okay with this level getting the large power increases and treasure bonuses, players naturally want to collect more tokens and add more to their builds. Problem is, gating level cards is a highly visible indication of a pay to win structure.

Every player I’ve intruded to the game has opened the PHB and asked about the various levels and subclasses. They’re front and center on the resources page. They have some initial concerns about buying levels, but they’re usually assuaged when they know that we have plenty of loaners to get to 5th level, and subclasses are quirky alternatives that aren’t necessarily better than 5th level.

That all changes if 6 level cards enter the picture this way. The conversation looks more like “we can get you to level 5 for less than $200, but level 6 costs 100x or more that amount so only a handful of people have them.” That’s a huge gut punch to people interested in the game. Why does this need to be so exclusive?

This is probably a topic that doesn’t need to be settled by Fridays deadline, but I don’t think the point should be ignored.

Jamie Campbell wrote:

David Harris wrote:

Endgame wrote: I posted this on page two of the thread, but I can lay it out better:

Using the Diablo II mercenary as an example, I want to suggestion having a cool single lackey that gets better as safeholds get better, instead of bringing the whole Monty Python entourage with me on my adventure (sorry Patsy).


For example, I propose that Safehold V comes with 10 initiate tokens. A fighter, rogue, cleric, ranger, (etc, one for every TD class).

For the purpose of this example, lets say I pick Cleric to be my companion. At the initiate level, for my cleric, I can choose:

Safehold V
Initiate Cleric
Damage wheel
1-2-3-4-5-6

Always Hits on a slid 15+

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless


He can cast Bless in one room as an instant action (roughly UR power level), or heal 8 points of damage. Only 1 check box, so he is out of special abilities after using 1.

My initiate has a damage wheel, and can be slid in my puck (Similar to a spirit pet). He always hits on a 15+, as he is still learning, but since we are working on a team, he can hit even high AC if I'm distracting the monster.


Safehold IV
Now that I've upgraded to safehold IV, I can transmute my Cleric to an apprentice.

Apprentice Cleric
Damage wheel
2-3-4-5-6-7

Always Hits on a slid 14+

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless

[ ]
Heal 12 points of Damage
Restore Spell (as scroll)

My Apprentice, like a Diablo II follower, has leveled up, can hit a little harder with a little more accuracy, and has gained a new ability tier. He can heal more damage, or restore a spell (similar to Carter's tome).


Safehold III
Now that I've upgraded to safehold III, I can again transmute my Cleric to a Journeyman, OR I could directly transmute him from an initiate at a higher materials cost (and save myself some back and forth shipping)

Apprentice Cleric
Damage wheel
3-4-5-6-7-8

Player Character gains +1 hit (full time hit buff to me. Let's say the Cleric is casting guidance or something similar on me every combat)

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless

[ ]
Heal 12 points of Damage
Restore Spell (as scroll)

[ ]
Smite (add character +melee damage to Journeyman attack)
Prayer (as spell)
Divine Assistance (turn damage wheel to max after sliding)


I'm not set on the powers or anything, but this is an example of a kind of system would be much more interesting to me, and it would be dramatically less balance warping than lots of bigger numbers.

I like were you are going with this, Endgame. Only thing that seems a problem is how does the use of the ability gets checked off? Something that is easy to implement and doesn't add significantly to time in the dungeon. Honor system would be one way, but some might take advantage of that I guess. So is there any easy way to check off the used ability with some level of accountability.

Once again, taking from shadowrun:crossfire, the use of stickers that are applied creates the “sub card” for the player. As abilities are increased, the number of stickers are applied when in coaching. I have heard the complaints about too much on coaches, it really isn’t because at this level of play, everyone is already done with their builds and sitting around for 24 minutes is pointless banter.

I like stickers, worked well at Skullcon!

BasicBraining wrote:

The Tier 1 Mythic token powers (only able to be transmuted and used with Safehold I tokens) include […] allowing players to gain a stackable +1 level benefit making 6th level characters possible.

I haven’t seen this brought up yet, but I think locking 6th level player cards behind mythic 1 tokens will be damaging to the overall health of the game. I’m really okay with this level getting the large power increases and treasure bonuses, players naturally want to collect more tokens and add more to their builds. Problem is, gating level cards is a highly visible indication of a pay to win structure.

Every player I’ve intruded to the game has opened the PHB and asked about the various levels and subclasses. They’re front and center on the resources page. They have some initial concerns about buying levels, but they’re usually assuaged when they know that we have plenty of loaners to get to 5th level, and subclasses are quirky alternatives that aren’t necessarily better than 5th level.

That all changes if 6 level cards enter the picture this way. The conversation looks more like “we can get you to level 5 for less than $200, but level 6 costs 100x or more that amount so only a handful of people have them.” That’s a huge gut punch to people interested in the game. Why does this need to be so exclusive?

This is probably a topic that doesn’t need to be settled by Fridays deadline, but I don’t think the point should be ignored.

I would agree that a level 6 card, should it exist, should not require a mythic token. I am also not sold that level 6 is a good idea.

I still think Mythic would be better served unlocking very cool subclass that starts at a lower level. The gear would be more than enough to make up for lower starting stats. Give me a Mythic level 3 Psionicist, a Troll Thug, or a Minotaur Marauder, and I would be pleased as peaches. This might also allow mixed Mythic/(Un)Mythic groups to be closer in power level.

Just going to add my opinions to the list of all the others. Most of these are random thoughts. They represent where I'm currently at and aren't necessarily shared by anyone else.

- I'm excited to have something new to chase and add to my builds.
- The tokens look amazing.
- Power creep is here. That ship has sailed. If you don't want to feel under or over-powered, you may need to find a group at your level and play the appropriate level of difficulty. All this power stuff is just numbers. Sometimes you have higher ones and sometimes lower ones. Fretting about it does no one any good, although I realize this can bother newer players who think they need to achieve higher power levels to fully experience the game. That is not true, but they don't know it.
- I've never found level of difficulty to have any impact regarding my enjoyment of a dungeon.
- Yeah, I'm not seeing really anything radically new here. It's just more stat enhancers and slot expanders, but then that sells tokens.
- I totally understand and agree that TD doesn't want to introduce anything that creates admin work on their part. Their focus is on new and exciting dungeons. I think we all want that.
- I do worry about the cost of this, but then Safehold V costs seem reasonable. I'll try not to worry and reserve judgement on future safeholds once I know those recipes.
- Today, there are players that lend tokens to those wishing to enhance their character. That's sort of common, but won't be applicable here unless the new person has their own safehold. I can forsee a lot of high end players having extra hirelings, underlings and followers, but won't have a lot (if any) extra Safeholds. That will prevent loaning of some stuff. Maybe if one person in the party has a Safehold to show, they could then loan out other tokens to be used. Just a thought.
- Overall, I'm excited to see this start and will adapt as needed to incorporate this into my character build and dungeon adventure.

BasicBraining wrote:

The Tier 1 Mythic token powers (only able to be transmuted and used with Safehold I tokens) include […] allowing players to gain a stackable +1 level benefit making 6th level characters possible.

I haven’t seen this brought up yet, but I think locking 6th level player cards behind mythic 1 tokens will be damaging to the overall health of the game. I’m really okay with this level getting the large power increases and treasure bonuses, players naturally want to collect more tokens and add more to their builds. Problem is, gating level cards is a highly visible indication of a pay to win structure.

Every player I’ve intruded to the game has opened the PHB and asked about the various levels and subclasses. They’re front and center on the resources page. They have some initial concerns about buying levels, but they’re usually assuaged when they know that we have plenty of loaners to get to 5th level, and subclasses are quirky alternatives that aren’t necessarily better than 5th level.

That all changes if 6 level cards enter the picture this way. The conversation looks more like “we can get you to level 5 for less than $200, but level 6 costs 100x or more that amount so only a handful of people have them.” That’s a huge gut punch to people interested in the game. Why does this need to be so exclusive?

This is probably a topic that doesn’t need to be settled by Fridays deadline, but I don’t think the point should be ignored.

I did mention that earlier, and I agree with you. More powerful tokens is just continuing the trend of UR/Relic/Legendary and now Mythic. I do see some people getting pretty unhappy if there are 6th level character cards that are only accessible by the few that get Safehold I and Mythic tokens. The fifth level cards were always pretty attainable. If 6th level is only attainable via a Mythic I token, only a very small percentage of players will have access to them.

On the other hand, I do see why TD is doing it this way. There needs to be a pretty big carrot to entice people to transmute all the way to Mythic I tokens, and carrots don't get much bigger than an extra +1 Level and the best Avarice token.

Wanted to really think on the sticker concept because building up an apprentice could totally be a collectible thi NB of a different medium as you progress thru the ranks of safehold. Here are two advanced characters from shadowrun:crossfire where each character has three levels of advancement on their card due to their karma buildup. I also show the available stickers that customize my character based on the choices decided

I am also +1 to a few points along the way here.

Like the idea of Strongholds, am not particularly enthused about them bring three new slots in the next few years, and that the slots mostly make boxes on the party card larger, either directly, or by expanding slots.

I do like the concept of the follower who grows with each level or stronghold. I forget if it was mentioned here or elsewhere, but theme and story wise, it makes a max sized max power party 10 players plus 10 followers, instead of 10 players plus 30 60 followers.

I’m OK with the concept of Mythic tokens, and it being expensive to get them. I would hope that Legendaries they in concept replace are part of the recipes for them.

I’m not sure if I’m OK with 6th level being Mythic only. I would hope there are several paths there, even if the Mythic path is the most straightforward.

True Dungeon, and other games that it shares a limited resource model with, always risk turning off the next generation if the end goals seem to far. It felt very far when I started in 2015, and my token purchases were slow but steady for several years. Lots more opportunities to play with VTD changed that. I think lofty end goals can be a good idea, but the steps in between need to be achievable as well, and then in a few years, a new generation will be ready to take more steps as TD becomes a thing they do more and more, instead of a one off they maybe do once at one big Con. And then another generation after that.

Endgame wrote: I posted this on page two of the thread, but I can lay it out better:

Using the Diablo II mercenary as an example, I want to suggestion having a cool single lackey that gets better as safeholds get better, instead of bringing the whole Monty Python entourage with me on my adventure (sorry Patsy).


For example, I propose that Safehold V comes with 10 initiate tokens. A fighter, rogue, cleric, ranger, (etc, one for every TD class).

For the purpose of this example, lets say I pick Cleric to be my companion. At the initiate level, for my cleric, I can choose:

Safehold V
Initiate Cleric
Damage wheel
1-2-3-4-5-6

Always Hits on a slid 15+

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless


He can cast Bless in one room as an instant action (roughly UR power level), or heal 8 points of damage. Only 1 check box, so he is out of special abilities after using 1.

My initiate has a damage wheel, and can be slid in my puck (Similar to a spirit pet). He always hits on a 15+, as he is still learning, but since we are working on a team, he can hit even high AC if I'm distracting the monster.


Safehold IV
Now that I've upgraded to safehold IV, I can transmute my Cleric to an apprentice.

Apprentice Cleric
Damage wheel
2-3-4-5-6-7

Always Hits on a slid 14+

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless

[ ]
Heal 12 points of Damage
Restore Spell (as scroll)

My Apprentice, like a Diablo II follower, has leveled up, can hit a little harder with a little more accuracy, and has gained a new ability tier. He can heal more damage, or restore a spell (similar to Carter's tome).


Safehold III
Now that I've upgraded to safehold III, I can again transmute my Cleric to a Journeyman, OR I could directly transmute him from an initiate at a higher materials cost (and save myself some back and forth shipping)

Apprentice Cleric
Damage wheel
3-4-5-6-7-8

Player Character gains +1 hit (full time hit buff to me. Let's say the Cleric is casting guidance or something similar on me every combat)

Abilities:
[ ]
Heal 8 points of Damage
Cast Bless

[ ]
Heal 12 points of Damage
Restore Spell (as scroll)

[ ]
Smite (add character +melee damage to Journeyman attack)
Prayer (as spell)
Divine Assistance (turn damage wheel to max after sliding)


I'm not set on the powers or anything, but this is an example of a kind of system would be much more interesting to me, and it would be dramatically less balance warping than lots of bigger numbers.

Thanks very much for taking the time to write your thoughts out for us. I really appreciate it when folks present thought-out ideas. I had gone done this path myself a few months ago, but I had lots of concerns that made me abandon it. I even was toying around with giving your henchmen a few slots to equip. But in the end there were just so many negatives about it that I dropped it. I wont' go into them now, but I wanted to say thanks for your ideas.

That's kind of where I am with this too. Power creep is here to stay, and while this is creep, the addition of a mythic difficulty and new TIER of tokens doesn't seem as bad as adding more arbitrary slots would. I'm going to try to stick with ideas that work within the existing framework of safeholds as they are right now without going out there on other recommendations.

I LIKE the idea of a craft(s) that will be around for a long time, and craft's that scale up to the point of taking multiple years to make. But I also want a system that is approachable for new players and players playing on limited budget that doesn't make them feel completely priced out.

My thoughts as they stand (prices are combined with under construction)
-Safehold 5 (SH5) should ideally cost about $100-125 to craft. Somewhere around the price of a 4 star. This allows players on the casual end of the spectrum to get in on the action. This recipe should include NO fleece (although a small number of monster bits would be fine) and should avoid EM and the higher tier materials as much as possible, or only use them to a minimal extent.
-The [hirelings for SH5 whatever they end up being named] should provide bonuses close to that of rare tokens. (Edit: ur/close to ur might be better.) and cost maybe $25-$35 in materials each. I'd like to either see a +1 TE hireling only usable with up to a single TE of at most UR rarity equipped on the character. Or for this feature to be baked into the SH5 (this is again, targeting for the lower end of the price spectrum and newer players to get them a small TE bump. Stacking with an on-character TE gets existing rare level players a reason to get excited)

-Safehold 4 can be more expensive. I'm thinking maybe $350-$400 in materials, with the followers at this tier being about UR cost - $125 at most. (this is targeting players that craft relics)

-Safehold 3 should cost about twice the previous tier. ~$800 in materials, not quite a legendary. With followers in the $300 range. (SH3 + 1 follower = near a legendary cost) (this is targeting players that craft legendaries)

- Safehold 2 kicks things up a notch. Should cost as much as two legendries in materials at most. But most of the cost at this tier should be absorbed by actually crafting Mythics, not in the SH itself. For now I'll refrain from mythic cost speculation. except to say "more than two legendries probably." I don't think Mythics should be split between SH 1 and 2. SH 2 should grant the ability to craft all Mythics.

- Safehold 1 should do something cool. Perhaps as a full-party benefit. Maybe the extra followers and more, constant access to subclasses or something. Maybe some way to customize classes more. But I don't think more mythic tokens feels right here. Maybe allow mythic TE loaners here? I dono. Both of those still sound boring. Maybe include a druid buff?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Iross wrote: It might also be good to get a clear understanding from TPTB whether this is a conscious decision to have an insurmountable gap in power level between those who invest in safeholds and those who don't, since that's most certainly what the outcome will be of the program currently proposed. +1 to having a very general idea of the costs of the higher level safeholds, it's hard to have a concrete view on this without that knowledge.

This is a weird take to me.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players who play with their token 10-pack and players who've invested in many good rares in many slots.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players with good rares and players who have invested in many Ultra Rares maybe a choice Relic or two.

There is an insurmountable power gap between players with many Ultra Rares and a Relic or two and players who have invested in 10+ Legendary and/or Eldritch Relic tokens.

No matter where your builds are today, you are already insurmountably more and/or less powerful than other players. Safeholds don't change that.

I mean insurmountable in a literal sense. In the scenarios you mention, a player has the leeway to buy pretty much whatever higher rarity tokens they like, all of which will make their build stronger. But the Safeholds are different in that they are a specific token which dramatically raises the power level cap on every character class - you either invested in your Safehold or you didn't. If you didn't, then as long as you don't have a Safehold, your build will never be able to reach a point where it is comparable to those of players who have invested in Safeholds, because those builds have multiple slotless bonuses which you don't. If that's how Safeholds are intended to work, then that's how it is, but if not then the power level needs a review.