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TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #157

Cassie wrote: That's kind of where I am with this too. Power creep is here to stay, and while this is creep, the addition of a mythic difficulty and new TIER of tokens doesn't seem as bad as adding more arbitrary slots would. I'm going to try to stick with ideas that work within the existing framework of safeholds as they are right now without going out there on other recommendations.

I LIKE the idea of a craft(s) that will be around for a long time, and craft's that scale up to the point of taking multiple years to make. But I also want a system that is approachable for new players and players playing on limited budget that doesn't make them feel completely priced out.

My thoughts as they stand (prices are combined with under construction)
-Safehold 5 (SH5) should ideally cost about $100-125 to craft. Somewhere around the price of a 4 star. This allows players on the casual end of the spectrum to get in on the action. This recipe should include NO fleece (although a small number of monster bits would be fine) and should avoid EM and the higher tier materials as much as possible, or only use them to a minimal extent.
-The [hirelings for SH5 whatever they end up being named] should provide bonuses close to that of rare tokens. and cost maybe $25-$35 in materials each. I'd like to either see a +1 TE hireling only usable with up to a single TE of at most UR rarity equipped on the character. Or for this feature to be baked into the SH5 (this is again, targeting for the lower end of the price spectrum and newer players to get them a small TE bump. Stacking with an on-character TE gets existing rare level players a reason to get excited)

-Safehold 4 can be more expensive. I'm thinking maybe $350-$400 in materials, with the followers at this tier being about UR cost - $125 at most. (this is targeting players that craft relics)

-Safehold 3 should cost about twice the previous tier. ~$800 in materials, not quite a legendary. With followers in the $300 range. (SH3 + 1 follower = near a legendary cost) (this is targeting players that craft legendaries)

- Safehold 2 kicks things up a notch. Should cost as much as two legendries in materials at most. But most of the cost at this tier should be absorbed by actually crafting Mythics, not in the SH itself. For now I'll refrain from mythic cost speculation. except to say "more than two legendries probably." I don't think Mythics should be split between SH 1 and 2. SH 2 should grant the ability to craft all Mythics.

- Safehold 1 should do something cool. Perhaps as a full-party benefit. Maybe the extra followers and more, constant access to subclasses or something. Maybe some way to customize classes more. But I don't think more mythic tokens feels right here. Maybe allow mythic TE loaners here? I dono. Both of those still sound boring. Maybe include a druid buff?

+1 to this.

I particularly like the idea of SH1 tokens being full-party benefits. If you have a big fancy proper castle, then you're a big proper fancy leader as well, right?
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #158

quoting a small section of a longer post:

Cassie wrote:
-Safehold 5 (SH5) should ideally cost about $100-125 to craft. Somewhere around the price of a 4 star. This allows players on the casual end of the spectrum to get in on the action. This recipe should include NO fleece (although a small number of monster bits would be fine) and should avoid EM and the higher tier materials as much as possible, or only use them to a minimal extent.


I agree that Safehold V should be a very easy starter level that casual players can aspire to. There is plenty of room to make the higher tiers more expensive.

I did want to ask why you think Golden Fleece should be avoided? To me they reward play over expensive orders, so I tend to think of them as the most casual friendly of the transmutes (they also don't have any in game benefit so I wouldn't think they would seem as important to someone that is starting a new build).
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #159

I’m fine with the mythic tier stuff being specific to the Safehold 2 and 1 owners, and the followers at Safehold 3 seem exciting, but I’d love to see tiers 5 and 4 be more party focused. I think newer players would be a lot more likely to pursue it if they could work on it together and all enjoy it. If you’re building a fortress, let everyone who occupies it benefit from having an entire settlement’s support. This would also hook in newer players in PUGs who get to benefit from a veteran noble’s land, but not give them access to mythic stuff.

If we’re trying to pull trade goods out of the community, use the Level 5 to create Villagers who buff consumables enough that people will really want to use them. Have the benefit apply to the party; a group with multiple safehold owners will be able to benefit from multiple Villagers, so there’s still reason for multiple people in a consistent group to have them, but a PUG with one noble will still see some benefit and want to start working towards it.

Don’t know the right numbers, but I’d love to see something like

Fletcher - ammunition tokens deal +3 damage
Apothecary - Potions heal +3 hp
Alchemist - alchemical weapons deal +3 damage (go spirit pets!)
Poisoner - weapon oils deal an additional +3 damage
Scrivener - scrolls deal +3 damage
Arcanist - wands deal +3 damage (I know they’re not printing any more but there are still a lot out there)
Rune carver - runestones add +1 to their effect

For the Safehold 4, tie the hirelings to the existing classes and let them fill in the gaps in the party. This helps with double downs, with groups that struggle to fill all 10 slots, or with groups that just don’t have someone for a particularly important role. If you want to go further into pulling tokens out of stockpiles, make them usable once per dungeon by default, but gold can be spent to “hire” them again for each additional use.

At level 3, people seem to like the flavor of the followers, but not the potential creep of lots of slot expansion. Perhaps these could instead be focused more on negating hindrances, so that safeholders don’t need to equip a token to avoid their least favorite effect. This would potentially free up, say, a bead for people who like to have free movement or ignore 50% miss chances, but without just straight up giving a 4th bead that could be used to pile on more stats. Options for followers might be

Free movement
Evasion
Ignore 50% miss chance for ethereal
Ignore underwater hindrances
Immune to charm and possession
See invisibility
Immune to retribution (like shirt of shielding)
Limited flight (strike a flying enemy with melee 1/room like fizzy lifting or charm of the faerie)
Sustain without air (like iridescent spindle)
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #160

OrionW wrote: quoting a small section of a longer post:

Cassie wrote:
-Safehold 5 (SH5) should ideally cost about $100-125 to craft. Somewhere around the price of a 4 star. This allows players on the casual end of the spectrum to get in on the action. This recipe should include NO fleece (although a small number of monster bits would be fine) and should avoid EM and the higher tier materials as much as possible, or only use them to a minimal extent.


I agree that Safehold V should be a very easy starter level that casual players can aspire to. There is plenty of room to make the higher tiers more expensive.

I did want to ask why you think Golden Fleece should be avoided? To me they reward play over expensive orders, so I tend to think of them as the most casual friendly of the transmutes (they also don't have any in game benefit so I wouldn't think they would seem as important to someone that is starting a new build).


Obtainability. Assume you get 3 pulls. Assume a 20% pull rate of monsterbits. Just getting one bit would require two runs. To get enough for a fleece would average 17 runs for a casual player. That's unreasonable at that tier.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #161

Greg wrote: I’m fine with the mythic tier stuff being specific to the Safehold 2 and 1 owners, and the followers at Safehold 3 seem exciting, but I’d love to see tiers 5 and 4 be more party focused. I think newer players would be a lot more likely to pursue it if they could work on it together and all enjoy it. If you’re building a fortress, let everyone who occupies it benefit from having an entire settlement’s support. This would also hook in newer players in PUGs who get to benefit from a veteran noble’s land, but not give them access to mythic stuff.

If we’re trying to pull trade goods out of the community, use the Level 5 to create Villagers who buff consumables enough that people will really want to use them. Have the benefit apply to the party; a group with multiple safehold owners will be able to benefit from multiple Villagers, so there’s still reason for multiple people in a consistent group to have them, but a PUG with one noble will still see some benefit and want to start working towards it.

Don’t know the right numbers, but I’d love to see something like

Fletcher - ammunition tokens deal +3 damage
Apothecary - Potions heal +3 hp
Alchemist - alchemical weapons deal +3 damage (go spirit pets!)
Poisoner - weapon oils deal an additional +3 damage
Scrivener - scrolls deal +3 damage
Arcanist - wands deal +3 damage (I know they’re not printing any more but there are still a lot out there)
Rune carver - runestones add +1 to their effect

For the Safehold 4, tie the hirelings to the existing classes and let them fill in the gaps in the party. This helps with double downs, with groups that struggle to fill all 10 slots, or with groups that just don’t have someone for a particularly important role. If you want to go further into pulling tokens out of stockpiles, make them usable once per dungeon by default, but gold can be spent to “hire” them again for each additional use.

At level 3, people seem to like the flavor of the followers, but not the potential creep of lots of slot expansion. Perhaps these could instead be focused more on negating hindrances, so that safeholders don’t need to equip a token to avoid their least favorite effect. This would potentially free up, say, a bead for people who like to have free movement or ignore 50% miss chances, but without just straight up giving a 4th bead that could be used to pile on more stats. Options for followers might be

Free movement
Evasion
Ignore 50% miss chance for ethereal
Ignore underwater hindrances
Immune to charm and possession
See invisibility
Immune to retribution (like shirt of shielding)
Limited flight (strike a flying enemy with melee 1/room like fizzy lifting or charm of the faerie)
Sustain without air (like iridescent spindle)


I really, really like these suggestions. Safeholds V - III would still be very useful and remain desirable in every build, but without creating the level of power creep currently causing concern.
I play Rogue. Occasionally I even play Rogue well.

Current Rogue Build
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #162

Greg wrote: I’m fine with the mythic tier stuff being specific to the Safehold 2 and 1 owners, and the followers at Safehold 3 seem exciting, but I’d love to see tiers 5 and 4 be more party focused. I think newer players would be a lot more likely to pursue it if they could work on it together and all enjoy it. If you’re building a fortress, let everyone who occupies it benefit from having an entire settlement’s support. This would also hook in newer players in PUGs who get to benefit from a veteran noble’s land, but not give them access to mythic stuff.

If we’re trying to pull trade goods out of the community, use the Level 5 to create Villagers who buff consumables enough that people will really want to use them. Have the benefit apply to the party; a group with multiple safehold owners will be able to benefit from multiple Villagers, so there’s still reason for multiple people in a consistent group to have them, but a PUG with one noble will still see some benefit and want to start working towards it.

Don’t know the right numbers, but I’d love to see something like

Fletcher - ammunition tokens deal +3 damage
Apothecary - Potions heal +3 hp
Alchemist - alchemical weapons deal +3 damage (go spirit pets!)
Poisoner - weapon oils deal an additional +3 damage
Scrivener - scrolls deal +3 damage
Arcanist - wands deal +3 damage (I know they’re not printing any more but there are still a lot out there)
Rune carver - runestones add +1 to their effect

For the Safehold 4, tie the hirelings to the existing classes and let them fill in the gaps in the party. This helps with double downs, with groups that struggle to fill all 10 slots, or with groups that just don’t have someone for a particularly important role. If you want to go further into pulling tokens out of stockpiles, make them usable once per dungeon by default, but gold can be spent to “hire” them again for each additional use.

At level 3, people seem to like the flavor of the followers, but not the potential creep of lots of slot expansion. Perhaps these could instead be focused more on negating hindrances, so that safeholders don’t need to equip a token to avoid their least favorite effect. This would potentially free up, say, a bead for people who like to have free movement or ignore 50% miss chances, but without just straight up giving a 4th bead that could be used to pile on more stats. Options for followers might be

Free movement
Evasion
Ignore 50% miss chance for ethereal
Ignore underwater hindrances
Immune to charm and possession
See invisibility
Immune to retribution (like shirt of shielding)
Limited flight (strike a flying enemy with melee 1/room like fizzy lifting or charm of the faerie)
Sustain without air (like iridescent spindle)


I like your idea that one of the levels of tokens (follower, hireling, etc) could provide bonuses to consumable token uses - hopefully substantial bonuses. That would give nice boosts and use up consumables. Maybe that would be appropriate for Apprentices. For instance:

Apprentices (maybe add 1/room free action to each as well):
Cleric: +6 to Healing Potions and Scrolls
Druid: +6 Damage for Polymorph Potions
Wizard: +6 Damage to Damage scrolls
Ranger: +6 to Ammunition Tokens
Fighter: +2 St to Strength boosting potions
Rogue: +2 Dex to Dexterity boosting potions

Or, alternatively, keep them as they are, but require you to turn in a consumable to activate them for a room.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #163

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks very much for taking the time to write your thoughts out for us. I really appreciate it when folks present thought-out ideas. I had gone done this path myself a few months ago, but I had lots of concerns that made me abandon it. I even was toying around with giving your henchmen a few slots to equip. But in the end there were just so many negatives about it that I dropped it. I wont' go into them now, but I wanted to say thanks for your ideas.

I appreciate you responding, as now I know not to further suggest it and it will save me vast amounts of time. I'll try to give feedback on further revisions as well, but I'm just dramatically less interested in a bunch new slots that make my numbers bigger.

Mythic tokens are interesting in concept, but I just don't have a desire to build a full mythic build either. I could be hooked if the rules said you only get a limited number of Tier 2 mythics and a single tier one mythic (As Bluey once said, the rules make it fun), but if its just a "here, you can spend X per slot to upgrade your whole build to get marble tokens with bigger numbers" I'm just not as interested. I just no longer crave bigger numbers as their own thing.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #164

Maybe this idea is a little late to the discussion, but one thing that attracts new players to True Dungeon is the idea that experienced people help the new folks along (e.g., with loaner/gift tokens) as opposed to other games’ spawn-camping, pay-to-play, etc.

Since the goal of Safeholds V & IV is to make the game more attractive to new people, how about those levels’ created staff provide party buffs of particular use to new folks? You’re a noble now, so act nobly by inviting the party over for a health-buffing meal, or let your skilled blacksmith sharpen their melee weapons for +1 damage, etc. A few HP won’t make a big difference to well-equipped players but it will to new ones. And each noble can create a Hireling who reflects what his/her Safehold offers, making the Safehold personalized.

Just please price those levels so those of us who can’t yet walk in with 10 Charm TEs and 30 Nuggets can use Safeholds to pay it forward to others as we were helped in turn. Which will let the new folks see they can eventually become nobles themselves in time.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #165

Greg wrote: At level 3, people seem to like the flavor of the followers, but not the potential creep of lots of slot expansion. Perhaps these could instead be focused more on negating hindrances, so that safeholders don’t need to equip a token to avoid their least favorite effect. This would potentially free up, say, a bead for people who like to have free movement or ignore 50% miss chances, but without just straight up giving a 4th bead that could be used to pile on more stats. Options for followers might be

Free movement
Evasion
Ignore 50% miss chance for ethereal
Ignore underwater hindrances
Immune to charm and possession
See invisibility
Immune to retribution (like shirt of shielding)
Limited flight (strike a flying enemy with melee 1/room like fizzy lifting or charm of the faerie)
Sustain without air (like iridescent spindle)


Thanks for the detailed feedback! This was the original idea, but they all seemed to corner-case to me. It would be really disappointing to hardly ever "use" a Follower token while adventuring. I wanted a power that was different than an effect you can get on another Rare token and that was useful during every adventure.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #166

Cassie wrote: My thoughts as they stand (prices are combined with under construction)
-Safehold 5 (SH5) should ideally cost about $100-125 to craft. Somewhere around the price of a 4 star.


That is *way* overshooting the cost of a 4 star. I just submitted an order for a Ring of Sirenbane yesterday (so I know the recipe off-hand), and glancing at Kirk's website, it would cost me a total of $39 to buy all of the components for it at "full retail".

That said, I have no idea where this whole "approachable to new players" thing came from. I'm pretty sure that was never part of the original proposal, only "lots of people will be able to take part", which is very much the same thing. I got excited by the concept of Safeholds knowing full well I'd never own one (it took me over a year to assemble the materials for just the aforementioned Ring of Sirenbane), and this isn't too far off the cost I was expecting for Safehold V.
Last edit: by Allen John.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #167

Jeff Martin wrote:

Greg wrote: At level 3, people seem to like the flavor of the followers, but not the potential creep of lots of slot expansion. Perhaps these could instead be focused more on negating hindrances, so that safeholders don’t need to equip a token to avoid their least favorite effect. This would potentially free up, say, a bead for people who like to have free movement or ignore 50% miss chances, but without just straight up giving a 4th bead that could be used to pile on more stats. Options for followers might be

Free movement
Evasion
Ignore 50% miss chance for ethereal
Ignore underwater hindrances
Immune to charm and possession
See invisibility
Immune to retribution (like shirt of shielding)
Limited flight (strike a flying enemy with melee 1/room like fizzy lifting or charm of the faerie)
Sustain without air (like iridescent spindle)


Thanks for the detailed feedback! This was the original idea, but they all seemed to corner-case to me. It would be really disappointing to hardly ever "use" a Follower token while adventuring. I wanted a power that was different than an effect you can get on another Rare token and that was useful during every adventure.


Hey Jeff, I like the idea of having an improving single follower, but perhaps some of the previous suggestions from people were too complicated. Instead, what if the follower gave like a "splash" of another class? It could be as simple as a small, always useful bonus each for Safehold V and IV (like +1 to hit and damage in melee for a Fighter follower) that could slightly improve from V to IV (or add a different bonus) and then a small class feature for Safehold III (like a lesser weapon specialization for Fighter, that allows 1 reslide per game, or 1 flank per game for follower Rogue, etc). The specifics or bonuses could be tweaked up or down, but I thought that this could strike a balance between a smooth and easy design, small always useful bonuses, and a splash of a class feature for something different than a normal Rare token.
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Last edit: by Powerblade3.
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Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please! 1 year 5 months ago #168

I am quite excited for this. I see both sides but over the last 6 months ive seen many concerns about all the trade goods out and that with the amount of 8k packs being bought vs the amount of trade goods being used that they wanted something that could help consume those. ( Fleece was one of them that has become more Ava due to VTD )

Power creep is natural, in all games. There are many different types of players and if you compared them based off what is available vs the max achievable there will always be gaps.
I see this as a good thing, gives something new to achieve, helps consume trade goods, gives new ways to play with your build and try to make things work ( Epic twin storms from this last weekends Tomb of Terror had AC of 45 and with my paladin, I could only hit on crit 20 ). It is available to all players unlike other legendary, Relic after their max transmute dates. I do agree that in order to hook players in that the 1st lvl should be easy to achieve.

I know Jeff and the rest of the TD staff have a very hard job of trying to constantly make new tokens, dungeons, safehold and who knows what else all while trying to make it engaging, and fun for all. It’s an impossible task and tho I will prob not be able to get certain things, I do like it and look forward to seeing what I can do. Thank you Jeff and the TD team!
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