TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

I'm sure it will take a long time to grok the full implications, and the community of theorycrafters and top tier players will develop better insights than these, however the amount of prospective power creep on the table here is absolutely eyewatering.

TL;DR: Perhaps keep the Followers to only 1 for any safehold level, or make Followers only able to equip things that don't impact the party card or slots.

Safehold III

With 1 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +10 for two handed melee, +8 for one handed melee

+3 from Underling Barbarian
+2 from Hireling Champion
+5 from Follower Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed

2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +8

+3 from Underling Rogue
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 From Follower Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind

3. Spell damage: +8

+3 from Underling Wizard
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind

That strikes me as a lot - but perhaps reasonable given the costs and as long as we're not going to tack on another +3-+6 through 2024's UR+ tokens.

Safehold I

With 2 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +4/+12 for two handed melee, +4/10 for one handed melee

+2 to hit with Underling Fighter
+3 damage from Underling Barbarian
+1 to hit with Hireling Duelist
+2 damage from Hireling Champion
+5 damage from Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed
+2/+2 from Follower Hedgekin with one of Gloves of the Brute, Mithral Gaunlets, or Death Knight Gauntlets


2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +3/+11

+3 damage from Underling Rogue
+2 to hit from Underling Ranger
+1 to hit from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+3 damage from Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind
+3 damage from Follower Hedgekin with Blessed Wind Gloves

3. Spell damage: +11 and +3 to hit with slide spells

+3 damage from Underling Wizard
+1 to hit to slide spells from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+2 to hit to slide spells from Underling Ranger
+3 damage from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind
+3 damage from Follower Fiend or Brawling on the assumption that it allows you to work a +3 damage Ring or a Shirt of the Shrewd into your build that isn't there already

This strikes me as being in the range of a 20% increase in the damage bonuses available for these things today - not counting any further addons from Mythic tokens, or other 2024 UR+ tokens.

These bonuses will increase over time as more powerful tokens are placed into the slots that can be expanded with Followers.

I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm sure it will take a long time to grok the full implications, and the community of theorycrafters and top tier players will develop better insights than these, however the amount of prospective power creep on the table here is absolutely eyewatering.

TL;DR: Perhaps keep the Followers to only 1 for any safehold level, or make Followers only able to equip things that don't impact the party card or slots.

Safehold III

With 1 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +10 for two handed melee, +8 for one handed melee

+3 from Underling Barbarian
+2 from Hireling Champion
+5 from Follower Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed

2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +8

+3 from Underling Rogue
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 From Follower Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind

3. Spell damage: +8

+3 from Underling Wizard
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind

That strikes me as a lot - but perhaps reasonable given the costs and as long as we're not going to tack on another +3-+6 through 2024's UR+ tokens.

Safehold I

With 2 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +4/+12 for two handed melee, +4/10 for one handed melee

+2 to hit with Underling Fighter
+3 damage from Underling Barbarian
+1 to hit with Hireling Duelist
+2 damage from Hireling Champion
+5 damage from Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed
+2/+2 from Follower Hedgekin with one of Gloves of the Brute, Mithral Gaunlets, or Death Knight Gauntlets


2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +3/+11

+3 damage from Underling Rogue
+2 to hit from Underling Ranger
+1 to hit from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+3 damage from Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind
+3 damage from Follower Hedgekin with Blessed Wind Gloves

3. Spell damage: +11 and +3 to hit with slide spells

+3 damage from Underling Wizard
+1 to hit to slide spells from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+2 to hit to slide spells from Underling Ranger
+3 damage from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind
+3 damage from Follower Fiend or Brawling on the assumption that it allows you to work a +3 damage Ring or a Shirt of the Shrewd into your build that isn't there already

This strikes me as being in the range of a 20% increase in the damage bonuses available for these things today - not counting any further addons from Mythic tokens, or other 2024 UR+ tokens.

These bonuses will increase over time as more powerful tokens are placed into the slots that can be expanded with Followers.

I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

+4/+12 actually doesn’t seem too far out of line for a multi year path meant to unlock Mythic level of play.

With that said I hope that Mythic level of play would make saves equally important to extra damage and we would see some prioritization in that direction. Lots of great options in the Safehold program to make characters more survivable.

Endgame wrote: Aren’t mythic intended to be the next step on the chain? Relic -> legendary -> mythic. I would expect basically all legendary to be superseded unless there is a limit to number of mythic that can be equipped

Edit - wasn’t it even hinted that mythic recipes would include the legendary in the same slot?

I have no problem with Mythics being better than Legendaries.

My preference is that Mythics not drastically devalue a tiny handful of Legendary or Eldritch Relic tokens by kicking them out of builds where there are numerous other slots Mythics could be put in that doesn't cause that problem.

I suppose if Surtr's is a mandatory ingredient in the Mythic waist slot STR boosting item, that would take some of my concern away.

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm sure it will take a long time to grok the full implications, and the community of theorycrafters and top tier players will develop better insights than these, however the amount of prospective power creep on the table here is absolutely eyewatering.

TL;DR: Perhaps keep the Followers to only 1 for any safehold level, or make Followers only able to equip things that don't impact the party card or slots.

...
snip

...

+4/+12 actually doesn’t seem too far out of line for a multi year path meant to unlock Mythic level of play.

Yes, but the modifiers mentioned in the original post do not include a single Mythic Token.

Mythic Tokens have the potential to substantially increase the numbers above by replacing the least effective token which makes your build in slot X with the best token ever printed in slot X.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

I've supported this idea before, that limiting to 1 combined slot for "followers" (Hirelings / Underlings / Followers) would help ease the bloat that this is going to cause, both in terms of power increase and design space.

Powerblade3 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

I've supported this idea before, that limiting to 1 combined slot for "followers" (Hirelings / Underlings / Followers) would help ease the bloat that this is going to cause, both in terms of power increase and design space.

I’ve suggested the same thing twice, so this gets a +1 from me.

Endgame wrote:

Powerblade3 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

I've supported this idea before, that limiting to 1 combined slot for "followers" (Hirelings / Underlings / Followers) would help ease the bloat that this is going to cause, both in terms of power increase and design space.

I’ve suggested the same thing twice, so this gets a +1 from me.

+1 here as well.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm sure it will take a long time to grok the full implications, and the community of theorycrafters and top tier players will develop better insights than these, however the amount of prospective power creep on the table here is absolutely eyewatering.

TL;DR: Perhaps keep the Followers to only 1 for any safehold level, or make Followers only able to equip things that don't impact the party card or slots.

Safehold III

With 1 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +10 for two handed melee, +8 for one handed melee

+3 from Underling Barbarian
+2 from Hireling Champion
+5 from Follower Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed

2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +8

+3 from Underling Rogue
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 From Follower Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind

3. Spell damage: +8

+3 from Underling Wizard
+2 from Hireling Archer
+3 from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind

That strikes me as a lot - but perhaps reasonable given the costs and as long as we're not going to tack on another +3-+6 through 2024's UR+ tokens.

Safehold I

With 2 each of a Hireling, Follower, and Underling, we're looking at:

1. Melee hit/damage: +4/+12 for two handed melee, +4/10 for one handed melee

+2 to hit with Underling Fighter
+3 damage from Underling Barbarian
+1 to hit with Hireling Duelist
+2 damage from Hireling Champion
+5 damage from Stomper and Boots of the East Wind for two handed, +3 from Boots of the North Wind for 1 handed
+2/+2 from Follower Hedgekin with one of Gloves of the Brute, Mithral Gaunlets, or Death Knight Gauntlets


2. Physical Ranged hit/damage: +3/+11

+3 damage from Underling Rogue
+2 to hit from Underling Ranger
+1 to hit from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+3 damage from Follower Stomper and Boots of the West Wind
+3 damage from Follower Hedgekin with Blessed Wind Gloves

3. Spell damage: +11 and +3 to hit with slide spells

+3 damage from Underling Wizard
+1 to hit to slide spells from Hireling Elven Archer
+2 damage from Hireling Archer
+2 to hit to slide spells from Underling Ranger
+3 damage from Follower Stoper and Boots of the South Wind
+3 damage from Follower Fiend or Brawling on the assumption that it allows you to work a +3 damage Ring or a Shirt of the Shrewd into your build that isn't there already

This strikes me as being in the range of a 20% increase in the damage bonuses available for these things today - not counting any further addons from Mythic tokens, or other 2024 UR+ tokens.

These bonuses will increase over time as more powerful tokens are placed into the slots that can be expanded with Followers.

I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

Matthew, I agree that it would be good to limit it to one slot per follower/hireling/underling regardless of the Safehold level. I don't think Safehold II and I need the added perk of extra slots to be desirable, the main draw is the Mythic tokens. For instance, allowing two feet slot items is pretty overpowered, allowing three seems way too overpowered.

I am also hesitant to have 2 hirelings, 2 underlings, and 2 followers at the Safehold I level. It seems like a lot. That said, I don’t know how many people will get to that level, given the likely cost. But it might not be a bad idea to either (1) reduce the number of slots in the progression, and/or (2) offer different effects than just “more, bigger numbers.” (Ideas: Items that give free movement, let you see invisible, negate the 50% miss chance for incorporeal, provide a re-slide, provide more types of damage reduction, negate fear/charm/curse, etc.; these could even progress from 1/game to always on).

However, I would not assume that all players who use a hireling, underling, or follower would opt to maximize damage. My first thought upon seeing the various options was that a +2 saves hireling would let me drop my IS Tanzanite Cube, and a +1 foot item follower would let me add Boots of the Marauder to my Boots of the Four Winds when I need free movement but don’t have room for Bead of the Lucky Traveler. But some people probably would go with all damage all the time. It’s a lot to balance.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Andy Strassmann wrote: I respectfully but strongly suggest that TD sets pricing/recipes by taking a hard look at the target market.

If the goal of Safehold Vs is to excite new folks about transmuting (and coming back more so they can make transmutes happen), you’re talking about occasional players whose builds have a few Rares and often no TEs. Set the recipes so that they can get an appropriately-powered slotless buff with loot from a few runs and they’ll have a goal worth coming back for. Set the starter recipes at the UR (much less Relic) price level and you’re telling them that TD is only for the big spenders—a message that will actively turn potential loyal/happy players off.

Big jumps in recipe costs and benefits between Safehold levels are fine as long as each level matches the target demographic.

There are transmutes every year aimed at that level of token spending, so hopefully those will act as an entry point for transmuting to get people excited about tokens and transmuting. To me, those are much better as entry points for beginning transmuting than the Safehold program.

+1. Exalted and Enhanced. And if one fails to transmute them in the time frame allowed they are still easy and affordable to find. If someone is building a "Safe-hold" (at any level) they should already be somewhat invested in the game.

I 100% disagree with this, do you remember the Charm of Health issue, I do. I remember not being able to make one because large traders made them all to sell for profit. It left a bad taste in my mouth that never went away. Having a multi year transmute is a much better way to draw in and hold a new audience than making a 3*. You see a bigger and grander potential end point with the safe-hold program. You do not have as much of a sense of growth and it doesn't attach you to the game or tokens as much.

Currently you have to play for multiple, multiple years to make the initial safe-hold, people who play religiously at a con will never be able to make this based off of the fleece alone. I feel the first level should be able to be made without making a newer play spend more than $150 as others have stated, reduce the bonuses if needed they are questionable too strong as it is.

I also believe the tokens should be loan-able, at least the TE's, the loaning spirit was the most appealing aspect of the game for me, Jedi was in my first run and set the standard for how a higher end player should act, I have only ever been asked to pay for TE use once and my group said no because it goes against the spirit of the game. Lock up stat boosting gear not the tokens that help players who may be drawn in by the camaraderie. If you don't like people charging to use their TE's be the change in the community and show how it should be done and how you should act.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: I am also hesitant to have 2 hirelings, 2 underlings, and 2 followers at the Safehold I level. It seems like a lot. That said, I don’t know how many people will get to that level, given the likely cost. But it might not be a bad idea to either (1) reduce the number of slots in the progression, and/or (2) offer different effects than just “more, bigger numbers.” (Ideas: Items that give free movement, let you see invisible, negate the 50% miss chance for incorporeal, provide a re-slide, provide more types of damage reduction, negate fear/charm/curse, etc.; these could even progress from 1/game to always on).

However, I would not assume that all players who use a hireling, underling, or follower would opt to maximize damage. My first thought upon seeing the various options was that a +2 saves hireling would let me drop my IS Tanzanite Cube, and a +1 foot item follower would let me add Boots of the Marauder to my Boots of the Four Winds when I need free movement but don’t have room for Bead of the Lucky Traveler. But some people probably would go with all damage all the time. It’s a lot to balance.

That's the problem with adding 6 new slots at once

I read it over a few times, can 2 of the same token type be equip or only 1 ? For instance, if I have safehold 1, could I get 2 underling barbarians giving me + 6 melee DMG ( +3/+3 ) my other question is the seems the 1st 3 lvls of safe holds have 8 possible hidings, but you only get 5 hire tokens, how can I get more hire tokens to get the other 3 ?

I would assume with what Jeff told us about 20 possible Mythic options, that there are 2 versions of these. One for safehold II and the max version for Safehold I… same question, we only get 5 hire tokens but have 20 to collect… would this mean i have to buy them from other safehold I players or would I have to make 4 safeholds to collect them all ?