TOPIC: Safehold Rules Targeted Feedback on the Safehold V Recipe

Fred K wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I really like the costs of the safeholds themselves. I think it is very solid. You can spend a total of $200, $600, $1200, $2000, or $3000 to get to each level. I think that's great.

As I think about it, I think the Follower is a tad too expensive, and perhaps should be just a bit lower like $500. I think Mythic I is too expensive and should be closer to $1,500. Remember, you spend $3,000 to be able to craft a Mythic I, so I think $2,000/ea on top of that is a bit steep.

Aren't you basically then pricing each Mythic I at about the cost of a Legendary (which I believe average about $1,500 to transmute)? Breaking the $3000 Stronghold cost down by the 10 Mythic tokens you can make just adds $300 each to them. That seems way too low to me. It seems like the starting point of a Mythic Recipe should be a Legendary token, and then add TG and GP on top of that.

Remember that market value of the most expensive legendary is $1,500 right now. The most expensive eldritch is RoSP at around $4,000. Mythic 1 is more than twice the most expensive put of print eldritch item. For perspective, for $10K, you can buy every eldritch that has been made plys a CoA and have enough left over for 5 runs at GenCon.

In value selling courses, we teach that one of the ways to see if you found the sweet spot in pricing is if your target customers vocally complain, but end of buying.

In that metric, assuming his target audience are the bigger collectors who get at least 1 $8K order just for themselves each year, Jeff nailed the pricing.

Personally, I’m in that group. The transmute costs are very high for the value presented but still at the edge of being reasonable. My question is will it be worth it to wait and just buy one off the resale market at half the cost versus building myself.

One problem with this high transmute cost is I can’t see doing more than 1 at all - as in zero chance probability of doing it. That’s not a good precedent for collectors trying to get 1 of everything as once we realize 4 tokens will be out of reach, it makes the effort to collect others less important as well. That probably only applies to 10 or 15 of us, though.

I’d recommend lower pricing for making the 2nd+ copy but that begs the problem of the resale market canibalizing new transmutes. That could be prevented by making them soul-bound, though.

I appreciate how the lower levels are accessible for newer players to get, at least, something in this hierarchy.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Comparing the transmuting cost of a Mythic vs the secondary market cost of a Legendary isn't an accurate comparison. We need to be comparing the transmuting cost of a Mythic vs the transmuting cost of a Legendary. The Mythic tokens are significantly more powerful than Legendary tokens, and they should cost significantly more to transmute as well. Personally I think it is a big mistake to aim the Mythic transmuting cost at $1,500, which has been stated earlier is around the transmuting cost of a Legendary. My recommendation is the Mythic recipe include a Legendary token and then at least another $1,500-$2,000 in ingredients at Mythic II and $3,000-$4,000 at Mythic I.

I also think it's not accurate to state that the cost of a Safehold I is part of a single Mythic token price. Safeholds V, IV, and III all have VERY valuable bonuses. Between Safehold II and I you can make 10 Mythic tokens. That means, if it costs $3,000 to buy the Safeholds, that only adds $300 per Mythic token - and that's ignoring all the benefits from Safehold V-III.

So, if we aim the transmuting cost for a Mythic at $1,500, even adding in that $300 price means we're only slightly higher than a Legendary transmuting cost ($1,800 vs. $1,500), which again I think is far too low.

For those that are going to transmute fewer than 5 Mythic tokens, there would probably be a market for the remaining transmutation tokens, for players that have Safehold II or I and want to transmute more than the 5 Mythics that come with each of those levels.

Impy wrote: Could we get a clarification if mythic items will include legendaries as part of their cost? This seems logical to me, as they would be the next step in progression.

Yes, a Legendary is required to make any Mythic token.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Impy wrote: Could we get a clarification if mythic items will include legendaries as part of their cost? This seems logical to me, as they would be the next step in progression.

Yes, a Legendary is required to make any Mythic token.

+1 to this mucho like

Jeff Martin wrote:

Impy wrote: Could we get a clarification if mythic items will include legendaries as part of their cost? This seems logical to me, as they would be the next step in progression.

Yes, a Legendary is required to make any Mythic token.

Thanks, Jeff! Do the costs on the recipe table include the Legendary token, or is that the recipe costs in addition to a Legendary?

Feedback directly on the recipe for Safehold V and Hirelings.

Safehold V
- Components look to be right in line with the target cost, if maybe a bit over
- To reduce price a bit, maybe drop Elven Bismuth and Oil of Enchantment to 1 each
- Maybe drop Darkwood Plank and Mystic Silk by 2 each and increase Alchemist Parchment and Philosopher's Stone by 2 each. Reason: Make these all an even 10 trade good each to take advantage of the 10x chips.
- Even just upping Parchment and Stone to an even 10 is helpful from a pure logistics point of view, as would mean 2 tokens instead of 16 int he box.

HIrelings
This is about double the target cost, unless Golden Fleece isn't factoring in. Suggestion is to either remove Fleece from the recipe or clarify that Fleece isn't included in the target cost.

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I think your Safehold II and especially Safehold I costs and recipes are significantly too low. They should be as much above Legendary recipes as Legendary Recipes are above Relics. Maybe Mythic II recipes should be about 3x a Legendary Recipe (ideally it should require a Legendary token and about 2x the ingredients additionally that a Legendary costs). Mythic 1 should be at least double that. The actual Safeholds should also be a lot more expensive to make - maybe instead of a 200/400/600/800/1000 progression it should be 200/400/800/1600/3200.

I think it's OK if it takes years for even top token buyers to get all the Mythic tokens. My concern is that if you leave the recipe costs as low as they are, before long you'll have to add something like an Epic Level above the Mythic level.

+1. You nailed it Mike.

Legendaries have been around since 2012 and when they came out it seemed like almost EVERYONE thought the costs were absolutely crazy. That they were broken, no one would make them, etc. But guess what, no one complains now, everyone is fine with them and a lot have been made.

The goal of this new tier should be the same. Let it stick for AT LEAST 12 MORE YEARS. Not everyone needs to have a Mythic, Safeholds aren't built in days or years but over MANY YEARS. It should take that long for everyone except the top spenders to get there. These are Mythic Tokens, the uber rare and most powerful of all the Tokens in the realm. It's ok if most don't have them. And it's ok for people to not be able to afford to get there. If most people have a path to them then they really aren't that Mythic.

The big risk here is shooting too low.
IMO percentages of accessibility by tier for the first 3 or 4 years should shake out as follows:

Safehold V - 95% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold IV - 75% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold III - 40% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold II - 10% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold I - 1-2% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

I'd say you need to at least double what's currently shown for Safehold II and I.

Another way to think of the Safehold I level for all you travelers...it's like United's Global Services Member tier. How many of you have that status? How many of you spend 50K per year on flights...??

It's fine having a tier that's really high and hard to get. Some will get there, most won't come close. Doesn't mean folks still can't enjoy the perks at the lower tiers and it makes it easy for United, they don't ever have to create another program or tier again.

Flik wrote:

Rob F wrote: Wow. These rough coats are much much lower than I expected. Sure it's cumulative to get to the higher levels but I think you’re going to have a ton of the big guys get there with ease. At the very least Safehold II and Safehold I should be much higher. If not, you'll just need to create another program again which will complicate things more. Or another level above Safehold I.

I’m sorry I disagree. Costs are already approaching over $5000 for projected max safehold and one mythic, PER PERSON. What problem are we going to solve by making it more expensive? If you want five people to be at this level call them artifacts and move on imo.

??? Are you saying 5K over the course of many years is high? I'd say that's cheap. That's only 1K per year. I think folks are forgetting that this isn't a Token. It's a Safehold, something that is supposed to take maybe YEARS to construct. And at that point you get to make a Mythic.

I get lots of folks nowadays have to have everything right away. Instant gratification is the new norm. OH!!! Look, a Mythic Token!! I should be able to place my 8K and get one!! Nope sorry, not the intent as far as I read it. If you want to place 3 or 4 8Ks then maybe now we're getting closer. No one should be building a castle in a year.

Maybe forget costs for a moment and look at it this way, however long it takes someone to be able to afford a Legendary they should expect it to take 4 or 5 times as long to get a Mythic.

I also look at it like, as the power levels go up, the percentage of the player base that has them decreases.

*Nearly everyone has Rares and below in their builds.
*Fewer people have URs in their builds.
*Even fewer people have Relics in their builds.
*Far fewer people have multiple Legendary tokens in their builds.
*There should be fewer people that get Mythic tokens than have Legendary tokens. Not everyone that buys Legendary tokens can and/or will get Mythic tokens. If they are priced at the level that most people that have multiple Legendary tokens have Mythic tokens, they are probably underpriced.

Rob F wrote: Safehold V - 95% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold IV - 75% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold III - 40% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold II - 10% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

Safehold I - 1-2% of the customer base should be able to obtain.

By customer base, mean UR+ buyers? Because the total customer base would mean the cost of SH5 would be like 1x DP and 200gp for 95% of it to be able to afford it.

Anyway, I agree that not everyone needs everything and that if the intent is something actually challenging then the program seems cheap. The problem is that challenging means very different things to different players. Where is the average for people who would aim for SH1? I just have no sense. Years ago, I might have been target audience, but I doubt I'd ever transmute the highest levels; I would have transmuted to like SH3 and just bought the other stuff.

Mike Steele wrote: I also look at it like, as the power levels go up, the percentage of the player base that has them decreases.

*Nearly everyone has Rares and below in their builds.
*Fewer people have URs in their builds.
*Even fewer people have Relics in their builds.
*Far fewer people have multiple Legendary tokens in their builds.
*There should be fewer people that get Mythic tokens than have Legendary tokens. Not everyone that buys Legendary tokens can and/or will get Mythic tokens. If they are priced at the level that most people that have multiple Legendary tokens have Mythic tokens, they are probably underpriced.

I was just going to post this Mike. Not everyone that has a Legendary should have a Mythic, most shouldn't.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: ...
*There should be fewer people that get Mythic tokens than have Legendary tokens. Not everyone that buys Legendary tokens can and/or will get Mythic tokens. If they are priced at the level that most people that have multiple Legendary tokens have Mythic tokens, they are probably underpriced.

I was just going to post this Mike. Not everyone that has a Legendary should have a Mythic, most shouldn't.

While I agree in theory, I'm not so sure this can stand up at higher levels for true dungeon. if someone has 8k in disposable income to spend on TD every year, they probably have more and just lack a reason to spend more than that. Pushing the numbers higher probably won't change that.