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TOPIC: 2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please!

2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #37

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Tyraël The Just wrote: I’m against limiting slotless items that each player can use. I have spent a long time collecting any that could help and even those that couldn’t for my current class just Incase I shifted to a different one. Limiting slotless will have made my last decade of collecting a complete waste.


Perhaps I wasn't clear -- I'm not suggesting we limit "slotless". I'm suggesting that we re-classify a few specific slotless tokens as "limited" (e.g. tomes) and then limit both the per-type count and total count of those tokens.


Kirk - come on - your proposal limits slotless tokens. The fact that step 1 in your proposal is to change the category of currently slotless tokens to some other category does not change that.


If you read Kirks latest post he said he's not advocating limits on any existing slotless Tokens except he said maybe lamps.

Yes for newer Tokens he's proposing a new class classification, which I like.

Personally I hate Slotless Tokens. The advocates for them always come back to the same argument - "I got these, so I should be able to use them, if you don't want to then impose a limit on yourself" they say. Well, then why can't I equip 10 Rings since I have a bunch of Rings and 10 fingers? "That's the rules they say". These same folks who like slotless Tokens are commenting about how we need to cool it on slot expanders. Double standard I say. I think slotless Tokens never should have been created in the first place. If your character is carrying a Token it should take up SOME slot. Gear slots would have been nice. Maybe 20 Gear slots max. Then Jeff could have came out with cool Tokens like Mules, or Magic bags, or something that eventually expanded the Gear Slot if he wanted to. But having a character that can wear only one pair of shoes but can carry hundreds of other items around.....come on. And now every build has the exact same Tokens.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
Last edit: by Rob F.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #38

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Rob F wrote: ...
Kirk I think this is a great idea! +100! Would help with build diversity, Token design space, and slowing power creep. Hopefully Jeff considers it.


What currently slotless tokens are meaningfully impacting build diversity and power creep?

Say, as compared with, Bead of Guided Strike or the Havoc Rings?


Power Creep:

- Ashes Pouch
- Carter's Tome
- Druegar's
- Elder Orb
- Eldest Orb
- Harlax's
- The Horns
- The Lamps
- Kvothe's
- Lotus Bowl's
- RoSP
- Skull of Cavadar
- ......etc.

And since everyone can (and does) equip the same Tokens there's zero diversity for Gear people carry.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #39

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kusig wrote:

AAckeret wrote: Regardless of what in game powers Mark of Enlightenment will have, please remember it also has benefits that the Mark of Tenets will not; name personalization on the token, and a side event at Ring Con.


It still should have a power equal to the general cost post event when compared to another token in the same slot at a much cheaper price point.


Maybe it 'should' have power correlated with the cost to transmute - but the Dragon Orbs demonstrate that in no way 'must' it.

I wouldn't assume it will be very different power wise. It could be. There is just precedent for it not being very different.


I think Jeff said it would have a Relic power level, but that has a lot of variance.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #40

Rob F wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Tyraël The Just wrote: I’m against limiting slotless items that each player can use. I have spent a long time collecting any that could help and even those that couldn’t for my current class just Incase I shifted to a different one. Limiting slotless will have made my last decade of collecting a complete waste.


Perhaps I wasn't clear -- I'm not suggesting we limit "slotless". I'm suggesting that we re-classify a few specific slotless tokens as "limited" (e.g. tomes) and then limit both the per-type count and total count of those tokens.


Kirk - come on - your proposal limits slotless tokens. The fact that step 1 in your proposal is to change the category of currently slotless tokens to some other category does not change that.


If you read Kirks latest post he said he's not advocating limits on any existing slotless Tokens except he said maybe lamps.


TL;DR: for the below. Kirk’s initial proposal which is still posted and unedited definitely adds limits to slotless tokens.

Kirk’s clarification still advocates for limitations on slotless tomes and possibly lamps.

Being accurate about the implications of the proposal is good.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #41

Rob F wrote: Personally I hate Slotless Tokens. The advocates for them always come back to the same argument - "I got these, so I should be able to use them, if you don't want to then impose a limit on yourself" they say.


TL;DR: Yes. I think in general people should be able to use the tokens they got, which under game rules they are allowed to use.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #42

Rob F wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Rob F wrote: ...
Kirk I think this is a great idea! +100! Would help with build diversity, Token design space, and slowing power creep. Hopefully Jeff considers it.


What currently slotless tokens are meaningfully impacting build diversity and power creep?

Say, as compared with, Bead of Guided Strike or the Havoc Rings?


Power Creep:

- Ashes Pouch
- Carter's Tome
- Druegar's
- Elder Orb
- Eldest Orb
- Harlax's
- The Horns
- The Lamps
- Kvothe's
- Lotus Bowl's
- RoSP
- Skull of Cavadar
- ......etc.

And since everyone can (and does) equip the same Tokens there's zero diversity for Gear people carry.


TL;DR: diversity of builds and diversity of gear are not the same thing.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



TL;DR: I disagree with you whether slotless tokens are a substantial contributor to power creep, and is worth addressing.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Slotless Power Creep Between 2012 and 2022 for the 19 slotless tokens mentioned

Expand to see the benefits all that slotless stuff gets you.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Slotled Power Creep Between 2012 and 2022 with 16 slotted tokens

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Expand to see what power creep came from 16 slotted tokens:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


And that is not even accounting for the fact that since then, the following slots have been added:
At least 1 Figurine
Legs
Shins
3x Bead
2x Ear slots, with which various slot manipulating tokens give your choice of:
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



I'll leave it up to the reader where the real problem with power creep in this game is.

Is it in slotless tokens?

Or is it in every increasing stackable offensive ability in existing slots, and continual addition of new slots?

If we are going to advocate for a big rules change on the basis of power creep, does it make sense to target slotless tokens first?
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #43

I appreciate the breakdown on creep Matthew. I’ve been working on creating real builds at multiple rarities years on year and am working on some analysis myself as I find the topic interesting.

2023 was another huge jump in ranged damage (+9 in charm alone). Looks like 24 may keep it up based on safehold design too.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #44

Speaking only for myself, I would be disappointed if things that are already slotless became limited, including Lamps. I am also in favor of slowing down the rate of slot expanders.

I hold both of these views at the same time, because I do not view it as a bad thing if a token continues to function *roughly* the same as it does at the time the person acquired it. The example of Rings was given. If a person currently owns ten rings, they acquired them knowing there was a limit or two or possibly three to use at one time. If a person owns many items that are currently unslotted, they acquired them with the same understanding of availability and use in game.

* EDIT* In addition to all of this, I would be perfect happy if no new slotless items came out, as well, *EDIT*
Last edit: by AAckeret.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #45

I'd be in favor of reprinting all the slotless stuff.....
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #46

I get it, some don’t like all the slotless items, but many do. Why limit them or change then to “ limited “ in the future? if players want to restrict themselves and try things they can, if not the they don’t have to.
I did a run with Trent where we only used stalker tokens ( not the relic beads ). We didn’t have to we did it for fun. If players want the challenge, then they can do so, I see no reason changing they dynamic of slotless items to a new limited slotless and then force everyone to do this.
I’m not busting on those who like this idea, if you like it and want the challenge than you can remove them and set your own rules such as the Hedgehog Teams, Fred K’s Tomb of Terror Crawl, and others I’ve seen.
Last edit: by Tyraël The Just.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #47

Tyraël The Just wrote: I get it, some don’t like all the slotless items, but many do. Why limit them or change then to “ limited “ in the future? if players want to restrict themselves and try things they can, if not the they don’t have to.
I did a run with Trent where we only used stalker tokens ( not the relic beads ). We didn’t have to we did it for fun. If players want the challenge, then they can do so, I see no reason changing they dynamic of slotless items to a new limited slotless and then force everyone to do this.
I’m not busting on those who like this idea, if you like it and want the challenge than you can remove then and set your own rules such as the Hedgehog Teams, Fred K’s Tomb of Terror Crawl, and others I’ve seen.

From the cartoon Bluey “ The rules make it fun “. It’s fun to have limits, constraints and challenges. Sure, we can make up our own “house” rules, but it’s a lot more fun when it’s part of the core rules to keep everyone on the same page.
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2024 Special Token Images < Feedback Please! 1 year 4 months ago #48

It seems odd to me that the solution to cure slot expansion is adding more slots.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

Acherin wrote: I also added VTD support for the most annoying token of 2024 the +2 Sun Scimitar.

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