TOPIC: Feedback Needed on Rules Changes for 2025 Combat/Classes

BeLinda Mathie wrote: In my experience, "the monster can only be attacked at range" rooms are at least twice as common as "the monster can only be attacked in melee" rooms. Maybe even three times more common. I'm not saying it never happens, but I can count the times the ranged ranger in my party has had to switch her attack mode on one hand, whereas I (Barbarian) would need a lot more fingers to do that tally.

Also, while there are times "the monster can only be attacked at range" can be fixed with a Potion of Leaping Attack, that isn't always the case, because Leaping Attack only works for flying or levitating monsters. Sometimes there are other ways to make the monster melee-accessible (use a round climbing up to the monster, ranged attackers do enough damage to bring it to the ground, etc.), but sometimes a melee-based attacker is out of luck.

That is my experience also, rooms where melee is prevented seem way more common than rooms that restrict ranged or spellcasting. Rooms where ranged or spellcasting are not allowed have been extremely rare in Dungeons we've done (which is all of them until the last couple of years).

#4: One other consideration for requiring a slide for most spells is that in person TD you are limited by your own skill, and the ability for your teammates to bump you better.
In VTD its a D20 RNG. Unless you can get your INT higher with extraordinary means, you will need a 12 or 13 on your RNG to hit anything (providing it is still static DC15 to hit, regardless of the difficulty AC).
So perhaps not as much a handicap in person as in VTD

Impy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I've seen several posts on this thread that talk as if melee combat is occasionally prevented from functioning, and ranged does not have this problem.

It varies by module, but melee, missile, and spell are all prevented by room design or monster capabilities with some degree of frequency.

It's true that retaliation damage only impacts melee.

But saying "why would anyone do melee with these changes, when melee gets shut down unlike ranged!" is a perspective not rooted in fact.

I don't have a full history of TD, but since 2017 I can only recall maybe 2 dungeons where ranged attacks were affected were I think I can list 4 dungeons where melee was affected in the last year

So statistically most people are correct. And it does over value a stat and I think you're point while correct ends up muddying the waters at the current time. Because correct in one instance does not invalidate the point that others were trying to make in which melee is (more commonly) affected by room effects.

This does not need to be the case and can be dealt with in module design, but it still needs to be conisdered

Let me start by saying, you may be right for recent years. I don't have modules for the 2020+ dungeons.

Here is a detailed analysis of the 2015 dungeons, showing all modes were hosed considerably that year, and if anything Melee had it better than Spell:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=580&id=234278#234278

The rest of this note includes a summary of modules 2017 and 2019, where:

Out of 17 rooms:
Melee was completely disabled 1 time, and hosed in some other way 7 times
Missile was never completely disabled, and hosed in some other way 4 times
Spell was never completely disabled, and hosed in some other way 4 times

(I picked these because they cover every other year from the period I own modules, 2015 - 2019 - not because I've done prior analysis and know the hosing rates of different combat modes for the odd numbered years.)

So it does look like melee gets hosed in some way more frequently than other modes.

That being said - it's not accurate to shorthand that to "ranged is never hosed, unlike melee." - Which is the primarily the sentiment I'm reacting to.

Finally - what gets hosed and what doesn't is a feature of dungeon design - not a rule or foundational principle of dungeon design. If most players start showing up with ranged builds, I expect ranged hosing will rise in prevalence.

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2017 - Dancing Among Stones:

Hosing quick summary: Spell was hosed the most, especially for Wizards and Elf Wizards who would begin combat unable to cast spells in 2 rooms this dungeon, including the final boss fight. Beyond that missile was more hosed than melee given the prevalence of iron based melee weapons and lack of missile based ones.

Room 2 - 3x Black Scrael:
Melee hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons
Missile hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons
Spell hosing: None

Note: in the 2017 token class, the year of this adventure, there was not a single Iron missile weapon. There were 3 rare, 4 uncommon, and 4 common Iron melee weapons.

Room 4 (Combat) - 5x Red Scrael:
Melee hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons
Missile hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons
Spell hosing: Completely unable to cast spells while a Scrael is attached to you.

Note: In this room 5 red scrael attached themselves to the backs of players at the start of the room with no save or way to avoid it. The scraels preferred to attach themselves to: Elf Wizard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard. If one or more of those classes weren't present, they would attach to other classes arbitrarily.

Room 6 - Draccus:
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Note: Monster took -5 damage from attacks that included fire.

Room 7 (Combat) - The Queen and 3x Red Scrael
Melee hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons, Scrael Queen would retreat from melee range on round 2, but could be brought back by destroying the stand of webbing she hung from
Missile hosing: 1/2 damage from non-iron weapons
Spell hosing: Completely unable to cast spells while a Scrael is attached to you

Note: In this room 3 red scrael attached themselves to the backs of players at the start of the room with no save or way to avoid it. The scraels preferred to attach themselves to, in order: Wizard, Elf Wizard, Monk, Rogue, Ranger. If three or more of those classes weren't present, they would attach to other classes arbitrarily.

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2017 - The Moongate Maze

Hosing quick summary: Melee is the only mode hosed in this dungeon, including a boss that is completely immune to melee.

Room 2 - Old Holly:
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 4 (Combat) - The Raven:
Melee hosing: Monster AC 4 higher vs. melee attacks
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 5 - The Iron Rook:
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 6 (Combat) - The Shadow:
Melee hosing: Immune to melee combat
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

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2019 - Abyssal Swamp

Hosing quick summary: Melee hosed in 2 rooms, missile in 1, slide spells in 1, all spells less effective at nightmare boss fight.

Room 3 - Witches:
Melee hosing: Must slide with non-dominant hand (Monks and Rangers must slide both pucks with one hand)
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 4 - Swamp Stalker
Melee hosing: Attack slides that land on odd numbers miss
Missile hosing: Attack slides that land on odd numbers miss
Spell hosing: Spells requiring an attack slide that land on odd numbers miss

Room 7 - Swamp Beast
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: -10 fire damage (also an additional -10 from any spell attack on nightmare)

2019 - Infernal Redoubt

Hosing quick summary: One of two boss monsters levitates out of range of melee attacks.

Room 2 - Snake Fiend
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 5 - Fire Fiend
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Note: Monster was immune to fire. On nightmare, any attack with any fire component was completely negated and healed the monster 5 HP.

Room 7 - Mind Slayer and Blackthorn
Melee hosing: Blackthorn levitates and can't be reached by melee attacks (without something like potion leaping attack)
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

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2019 - Path of Death

Hosing quick summary: No hosing of note this dungeon.

Room 2 - The Guardian:
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Room 4 - Undying Blight
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Note: On hardcore immune to shock, on Nightmare also immune to cold, on Epic also immune to Sonic

Room 6 - Lamia:
Melee hosing: None of note
Missile hosing: None of note
Spell hosing: None of note

Note: On epic the Lamia fully heals each round unless damaged with magical fire.

I am guessing this won't be a very popular suggestion... few of mine are...

8. For the Druid's 1/game special power, make it "Either Spell Surge or use a Trinket."

At the highest levels, it won't really matter. At the lowest levels, the players probably won't have a Trinket, so it won't matter. At the middle levels it could be in interesting choice -- especially with ways to refresh the special power!

Beertram wrote: I am guessing this won't be a very popular suggestion... few of mine are...

8. For the Druid's 1/game special power, make it "Either Spell Surge or use a Trinket."

At the highest levels, it won't really matter. At the lowest levels, the players probably won't have a Trinket, so it won't matter. At the middle levels it could be in interesting choice -- especially with ways to refresh the special power!

Not a terrible idea, but I just don’t find the current trinkets compelling. A few more points than a melee weapon doesn’t feel like a class ability. Now if we got some more interesting trinkets with more distinctive powers I think it could be a solid idea.

#6

Jeff Martin wrote: Monks gain a bonus to AC as Clerics do with Wisdom (we may have to tweak their starting AC).

10/10. No Notes.

#1

Jeff Martin wrote: Dexterity will now be treated like Strength is for both to hit and damage with MISSILE attacks (not Ranged). Thus, a DEX of 18 will give the archer +4 to hit and +4 to damage.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thrown weapons would now be moved to all Dexterity for to-hit and damage.

This has been beaten to death by previous posters. I will refrain from repeating their more detailed points about this maybe putting too much power behind a single stat. I would expect most classes to re-gear to ranged if this change goes through to optimize +Hit/Damage/Reflex/Ac.

#8

Jeff Martin wrote: The Druid class will get tweaked so that it best represents a "jack of all trades" class. This includes changing polymorphing do it is naturally built into the class to give the druid fun/cool useful powers. If Druid want to be a big fighter in a room, they can do that with a Trinket token.

This sounds good. as long as "jack of all" is not "master of all"

#7

Jeff Martin wrote: Paladins gain additional healing pts, on their first use of Lay on Hand, equal to their Wisdom bonus

This seems really minor and kind of weird but fine. Would be fine with Paladins getting Charisma as well if its only on the first LoH use. Would rather see a way to buff each LoH point to do more. Maybe follow the same pattern for the bard if the intention for that remains the same.

@Matthew Hayward: ( didn’t wanna quote your entire comment ). I think with VTD, it has added many more dungeons per year and therefore the numbers have be skewed in one side gaining the more we have. I do not have the statistical evidence to back this up, I am only theorizing. I played a bit back in 2012-14 then was gone for years, back in 2021 ? I’d have to ask Kirk 😂 but the gap of my time have made that data lost to me to compare pre VTD to Post VTD. Does anyone have the data on room restrictions/ hindrances ?

As a general comment, not meant to offend anyone. I’m not sure we are starting at the right time or point. This needs to be discussed in order to work on mythic token recipes as well as to give the Druid class much needed information for what they should steer clear of. But this process takes time and I’m extremely worried due to the time deadlines on when these tokens must be finalized that we are now in a mad dash for this part of the class restructuring.. which in my opinion is not a good idea. I had thought about how I would do it and I thought… just like before open up individual threads in each of the class houses threads. Let the paladins talk. Wizards, bards, rouges etc and most of us would got into most threads but the discussion in each would be focused on that class. Then, just like tokens, it’s all brought together like this thread were other classes can bring up concerns, over power under, things that are game breaking etc. then we would finalize them and work to get this portion done… just my idea but this is where we are… my concern is still that we have very limited time and as I have heard from many of you, these aren’t all little things. These could potentially break parts of the game, the classes etc. I have no doubt the community will be there to help get it on course but the point still remains, how can we properly balance, restructure, and make each class shine in its own right, with little to no time ?

I know my Paladin will never hit like a barbarian, or heal like a cleric, just as a wizard can’t have AC like mine, without taking hits to dph. Each class is meant to be its own. I like that. The other worry is #8. The jack of all trades. I like the concept this and I think that the Druidic players have great points. If this is the way TDA is going with the class, there needs to be set ups where they can. My concern here is making the Druid players aware that the room / set up is primed for there class. Will they know and be able to fully stretch there wings? Will this be a room were non Druid players are more restricted in order to allow them to showcase the jackness ? Vise versa, will other rooms be geared for other classes? Like Paladin ? Idk how that would look for my class ? It would have to be combat and unfortunately we are at the very bottom for melee and like mid ish for missile. I did like the Paladin in ToT CHA6 and the blade. Though I deff got disintegrated because I wanted to make sure a 1st time run player wasn’t so they could get there pin ( it was room 7 ) but I really liked that and went and acquired a Ring of Pandemonium so I could not be dusted in the future 😂

#2, #3, #5

Jeff Martin wrote: 2) Wisdom will also do this exact same + to hit / + to damage for Clerics and Druids who need to slide a hit to do damage. This will not change the amount of Healing they do.
3) Intelligence will be the same for Wizards as Wisdom is for Clerics/Druids -- bonus to hit and damage.
5) Charisma will do the same to hit/damage bonus for Bards with to hit spells, and we will set up bonus damage for Bardsong based on certain levels of Charisma. However, these won't be based on the other standard bonuses for Attributes like Strength. It will be more like +1 to damage at a Charisma of 18, +2 for a Charisma of 22, etc.

WHoooo boy. these are a doozy. I "like" them but I think Impy's suggestion here has a lot of merit to it. There are a few good questions in the thread regarding how this interacts with various other rules/abilities.

Beertram wrote: Sorry if I am repeating anything. I have only skimmed this thread.

8. I think one way to make the Druid more of a jack-of-all-trades would be to give them fewer spells, but group the spells like a Bard's spells -- so maybe they get 4/4/3 for 4th level and 5/4/3/2 at 5th level. This way they can use their slots for the type of druid they want to play.

Then add Minor Wild Shape as a 0-level spell. They could polymorph into 1 of several non-combatant (or maybe always only do 1 pt. of base damage) forms which give useful powers. Some of these were mentioned elsewhere (Bat, Dog,...)

Also add regular Wild shape as a 2nd level spell. They could choose 1 of several shapes which all have the same combat wheel (printed on the puck, like the Monk's puck), but each has a different power. The Dire Hedgehog has retribution damage, the Alligator crits on 19-20 and can function under water, the Eagle can make melee attacks at range... stuff like that.

I really like the idea of built-in "spend a spell slot to polymorph" abilities.