TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think most players would rather have the DK set than the Relic level Redoubt set.

It depends if you want AC. For example. Running blind NM or epic double downs, A Dwarf Fighter or a Paladin may prioritize AC. Fighter may care less (AC is generally a poor stat as you know), and Cleric has other options as well.

Obviously.

My point is TD players clearly want STR more than AC on balance.

During the development of the class legendaries, Fighters strenuously argued that they didn't want, nor need, any more AC, and in fact probably had too much already.

TD has gotten by for 21 years without putting a single STR boosting token in the head slot. It can do so for another 21. If it must put STR in the head slot, it needen't ladle on other benefits.

I think it is pretty clear the Death Knight Helm is solidly at relic level, but so is Cranston's. On some level I think this is okay... it does make future head slot design a bit harder though.

In 2020 we had Cook's Hat and in 2019 we had Hat of the Hellway... neither is even close in power.

What would a head slot relic or legendary look like if Cranston's or the Death Knight Helm is the comp for the UR? They might look a lot like the class legendaries.

Dougout wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Charm of Pointed Taunts - Not sure that +3 to hit during taunt round is (a) going to motivate Dwarf Fighters to equip this token or (b) going to be easy for DMs to track during combat, or for the developers of the character creators to implement.

Acree. Maybe if it granted +3 Retribution on the Taunt instead.

A previous iteration had Retribution, but... look at Charm of the Hedgehog. Now look at your proposed effect again.

Why would anyone want a +3 RD (1/combat) Charm exclusive to one class, when they can pick up the cuddly little guy right next to it for a class-agnostic always-on +5 RD?

Belt of the Hunter: In my opinion it's too similar to Belt of the Deadshot from 2022.

Charm of Pointed Taunts: I really like this token because it allows a Dwarf to call a taunt after they slide and think they need some bonus hit chance to damage the monster. This is a unique ability. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work out in VTD since actions shouldn't be declared before damage is shown (or maybe they can see it on the app?) but it still might be nice. Although since others are arguing it's too weak, I wouldn't oppose seeing it giving +4 to hit...

Death Knight Helm: Worthy choice for the selected classes. It felt funny to get more damage from wearing a funny hat and second pair of glasses.

Nightshade's Grim Gloves: I suggest wording '3x (instead of 2x) damage on "19-20" if Sneak Attack is a critical (does not stack)' - stolen from +2 Death Flail . If not that, then the word 'critical' needs to be on the token somewhere.

Shield of Guarding: I liked the old effect but admit it may have been disruptive to figure out when guards are effective in the middle of combat. I hope that effect is being considered for the new class card. This iteration of shield is still good.

BasicBraining wrote: Nightshade's Grim Gloves: I suggest wording '3x (instead of 2x) damage on "19-20" if Sneak Attack is a critical (does not stack)' - stolen from +2 Death Flail . If not that, then the word 'critical' needs to be on the token somewhere.

It would be the same as the wording and ruling on Assassin's Crossbow x3, I would imagine. Same x3 effect from different slot and not weapon specific. So far as I know, nothing currently grants x4 Crit.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

Dougout wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Charm of Pointed Taunts - Not sure that +3 to hit during taunt round is (a) going to motivate Dwarf Fighters to equip this token or (b) going to be easy for DMs to track during combat, or for the developers of the character creators to implement.

Acree. Maybe if it granted +3 Retribution on the Taunt instead.

A previous iteration had Retribution, but... look at Charm of the Hedgehog. Now look at your proposed effect again.

Why would anyone want a +3 RD (1/combat) Charm exclusive to one class, when they can pick up the cuddly little guy right next to it for a class-agnostic always-on +5 RD?

Because having a 10 Synergy the same year as a TE release and 3 Legendary tracks... and all the relics.... is hard on the wallet and hard for people who don't play enough to get good trades randomly.... specially with other cool tokens to get multiple of for groups.... It could deal Sonic Damage. to give variation and elements.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Nightshade's Grim Gloves:
In most TTRPGs, 2× damage really means +100%, so if two effects apply 2× damage each, it's only +200% for a total of 3× damage (rather than 4×). The Multiple Damage Multipliers section of the PHB seems to be in line with this.
So to clarify then: if a Rogue equipped with a +2 Assassin’s Crossbow and Nightshade's Grim Gloves slides a critical 20 on a Sneak Attack, since both do 3× damage (i.e., +200% each), would that result in a final multiplier of 5× (i.e., +400% damage)?

Currently 3x Crit is the max crit. The gloves would only expand the Assassin's Crossbow's ability to 3x crit to 19 or 20 on Sneak Attacks on their own... but they do grant any weapon the capability to do the same though.

A Rogue wearing Raphiel's and using the Assassin's Crossbow can 3x crit from 17-20 in sneak and on 20 out of Sneak.
A Rogue wearing Nightshade Gloves, Raphiel's and any other weapon and/or item that doesn't expand crit innately, would get 3x crit from 19-20 and 2x crit from 17-18 in Sneak, and 2x on 20 out of Sneak. It would be interesting to see how the damage adds up with Nightshade's Weapons.

Dougout wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Nightshade's Grim Gloves:
In most TTRPGs, 2× damage really means +100%, so if two effects apply 2× damage each, it's only +200% for a total of 3× damage (rather than 4×). The Multiple Damage Multipliers section of the PHB seems to be in line with this.
So to clarify then: if a Rogue equipped with a +2 Assassin’s Crossbow and Nightshade's Grim Gloves slides a critical 20 on a Sneak Attack, since both do 3× damage (i.e., +200% each), would that result in a final multiplier of 5× (i.e., +400% damage)?

Currently 3x Crit is the max crit. The gloves would only expand the Assassin's Crossbow's ability to 3x crit to 19 or 20 on Sneak Attacks on their own... but they do grant any weapon the capability to do the same though.

A Rogue wearing Raphiel's and using the Assassin's Crossbow can 3x crit from 17-20 in sneak and on 20 out of Sneak.
A Rogue wearing Nightshade Gloves, Raphiel's and any other weapon and/or item that doesn't expand crit innately, would get 3x crit from 19-20 and 2x crit from 17-18 in Sneak, and 2x on 20 out of Sneak. It would be interesting to see how the damage adds up with Nightshade's Weapons.

There is no max crit. Assassin’s crossbow specifically talks about going to x4 on TokenDB. Crit over x3 is just very hard to get.

+2 rod of focus
Damage wheel seems 1 too high for a +2 weapon. Should probably be 3-4-5-6-7-8

Bead bracelets:
Should probably only be 1 bead, for the same reasons as discussed last round at neck. As far as attributes and abilities go, beads outpace charms (see +6 attribute beads, or Bead of Celecia in this set).

Charm of Pointed Taunts
Name is better, but maybe something like Charm of Mockery?

In any case, I'm not sure I'd equip a single round +3 over a +2 damage charm or a +2 strength charm.

Charm of the Hedgehog
10 ret at max is the same as a belt or cloak slot (even if it takes a full party). 4/6/8 might be a better layout and is closer to maintaining what retribution rare charms have.

Death Knight Helm
Lots said on this one so far. I like it as it is and love the art.

Earcuff of the Cabal
adding both scrolls and mystic staves on this is interesting. I'd probably leave off the healing bonus to keep everything centered on damage, though.

Holy Symbol of Selenwa
I still don't love this one for trying to do too much at once - I'd really vote for either just doubling turn undead, or triggering a full party heal X points 1/game (at whatever value seems appropriate - maybe 10 like divine intervention?).

Nightshades Grim Gloves
Needs clarity that 19-20 is a crit, as others have mentioned

Picc's Grindstone
Love it - though I'm not sure we should be allowed to equip 3 of them with runestone bases. Maybe runestone bases shouldn't allow duplicate UR runestones, or we should put that ability on a relic runestone base?

Also, the sections in parentheses might be better stated as:
(Reusable Runestone)

Shield of Guarding
Vastly prefer the prior version that allows guard to work on missile attacks. 1/game on the shield isn't enough that I'd consider using it over redoubt shield (ac, str, hp), lucky shield (saves, hp), dk shield (offense), thors mug (even more offense) etc.

In any case, should probably drop Bard and Druid


Thor's Mug of Melee
I still don't love drinkware being the #1 thing to equip in melee offhand, especially on the heels of the Death Knight Shield. How did drinking potions as an instant action work out for a wonder effect? Perhaps this could be +2 or +3 melee damage (rare brawler's mug) and 1/game drink a potion as an instant action?

Death Knight Helm: perfect!

Picc's Grindstone: perfect!

I heart Charm of the Hedgehog

Shield of Guarding: I guess it's kinda cool how this version dovetails with Amulet and Ava's, but I liked the previous guard vs missiles better

Thor's Mug of Melee: traditional wizard builds won't use this anyway, but why not let muscle wizards equip it if they want to? I do see the logic of not letting rangers and monks double-dip the bonus (monks can equip the token but if so they only get one attack).

Belt of the Hunter: crossing the streams a little bit here, but I can't help pointing out that

• under current combat rules, this token (+1/2 hit +2 dmg +1/2 AC +1/2 Reflex) compares reasonably with Belt of the Deadshot (+2 hit +3 dmg)
• under hypothetical "All You Need is Dex" rules, this token (+1/2 hit +3/4 dmg +1/2 AC +1/2 Reflex) would totally blow Belt of the Deadshot out of the water

Whether this token is a reasonable design depends *entirely* on whether you still feel inclined to pursue that rule change.

Bead bracelets (don't change)
2 Beads is really the minimum viable option for a wrist slot considering how new the Luna's transmute is. Further nerfing the bead expander would not produce the results you are looking for. Folks will just use Luna's and wait for the next bead expander to come out.

It would also be setting the power level of Follower Dragonkin above a UR out of the gate which I don't think is a good idea. If Dragonkin is worth a bead+ion stone then a contested wrist slot is worth 2 beads.

I don't like the change to Shield of Guarding. The Paladin in my group can already guard multiple players - and those he doesn't guard really don't need it.

Adding a new effect to guard vs. Missiles made it a token I really looked forward to picking up for him - with the new change - I'll pass and just keep on using the Redoubt Set.

Cary Kelly wrote: I don't like the change to Shield of Guarding. The Paladin in my group can already guard multiple players - and those he doesn't guard really don't need it.

Adding a new effect to guard vs. Missiles made it a token I really looked forward to picking up for him - with the new change - I'll pass and just keep on using the Redoubt Set.

In either case you can keep the redoubt set and stack in another shield. Just switch the redoubt shield to ranged offhand like a barbarian does to maintain the set bonus.