TOPIC: 2025 Transmuted Tokens

Bead Bracelets
Definitely going in the right direction. Beads up to this point have been more powerful than their charms at least statistically. In terms of saves they tend to come out on top roughly by 20-33% (More plentiful +4 single save beads than their charm counter parts which on average are +3 to one save). The big difference in beads vs Charm though is ability bonuses. Charms give +2 ASI at UR level. We're seeing +6 ASI at Vol UR (I see as relic level) and Relic level. And +3 at Vol Rare (which I see as UR). Which is leaps and bounds better.
Even at normal rare, we end up with a lot more beads that give +2 ASI to specific classes vs charms which are +2 ASI and some negative.

I'd suggest +2 at relic and +3 at legendary. Though if you're intention is for Charms and Beads to be equal in power but just have different things they're good at then this is fine. It would be nice to know that intention though so we can just move past that point.

Note: I am still on team "I'd rather we never have this slot expanding item in any form." I am just stating my opinions on if this has to exist, then this is how I think it would be healthiest for the game.

Bifrost Charm
This is currently a charm version of Ring of Havoc. I thought the ring slot was supposed to be more valuable/powerful than charms. This should be +3 damage choose at start and it'd be perfect.

I could see doing -5 at relic level with a few different types but with a reprint if topaz going from -10 to 5 feels weird. But something I could get behind as long as it included darkrift to make the sapphire feel like it came from the Topaz. I do still believe the IS Sunstone at what it is ( minus adding darkrift ) is within realm of acceptable parameters. I do agree with you story parameters that it can lead to issues, but I have to believe that Jeff and TDA have thought of this and the DR ceiling will do what they intend too.
If not, and the goal is to create multi typed new damage that can’t be resisted or create many new types that have no resistance…. If that is plan, then I’d agree with you that the Trillant path is not only pointless, but a frustrating path.

I do believe that they have thought of this and the path the legendary Sunstone Trillant is on, mixed with the DR ceiling cap, will be something fun. I am more worried about the Bibwicks that I’d rather see completely removed that where it is going. Though as I stated earlier, I truly believe that this is Jeff’s way of allowing us who can’t make the Totem of Avarice for a while, a way to use the 3 beads and use some of the beads that will have come out during the beads 6 year run. ( one year on then off for 3 beads then it’s crafting the year the 3rd bead comes out IF you can.

David Zych wrote: Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.

---

My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)

+1. Anyone else remember the dungeon that actually did "Eldritch Fire" to get around any Fire DR? Or was it "Sacred Fire" (that was neither Sacred nor Fire -- now go take your unavoidable damage. You too Barbarian; Sacred Fire burns through your generic DR)?

The point being: none of these outcomes are "what if" situation. Each of these have actually happened before: damage that was completely negated or needed mass healing; damage that was murderously deadly or started to sting; damage "typing" that was clearly because balance fell out of whack and needed some way to be adjusted.

Please don't make the same mistake we've already seen before. You must have learned some lessons on how unbalanced things became from the SRoEC. Apply them here.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

David Zych wrote: Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.

---

My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)

+1. Anyone else remember the dungeon that actually did "Eldritch Fire" to get around any Fire DR? Or was it "Sacred Fire" (that was neither Sacred nor Fire -- now go take your unavoidable damage. You too Barbarian; Sacred Fire burns through your generic DR)?

The point being: none of these outcomes are "what if" situation. Each of these have actually happened before: damage that was completely negated or needed mass healing; damage that was murderously deadly or started to sting; damage "typing" that was clearly because balance fell out of whack and needed some way to be adjusted.

Please don't make the same mistake we've already seen before. You must have learned some lessons on how unbalanced things became from the SRoEC. Apply them here.

This feels like a place where half damage is a far superior mechanic to an integer. If this was half damage and can't stack with DR you still take some damage and it is easier to design around.

I think the transmutes are looking pretty good Jeff, thanks once again!

-I did like the bead expander being at neck rather than wrist, mostly because it instantly more powerful than Luna’s and is only two years away from it (beads are more powerful than charms). I’m not sure this token will get made as much because people with Luna’s already won’t want to spend legendary prices to shelve the Luna’s that quick. Making it 2/3/4 beads was the better play than 3/4/5.

-Focus eye patch is good, though I think it could have had 6 be the top end and still not be broken (only one eye slot compared to two finger slots for Relsa’s).

-I like the Ioun Stones at -10 for people who will never be able to get SRoEC. I would have liked Darkrift to stay on the token but meh. People are chirping that the IS is gonna be world ending, maybe nerf the +saves before taking the damage reduction down.

-The participation transmutes are good rewards for people who play every event

Thanks!

-

What if…

Future trilliants did a % off?

So, say 50%. Get hit with 10 fire. Turn to page 567, people with trilliants take 5, people without take 10. Nobody likes damage, but works. 30 fire damage on mythic run, people with trilliants take 15. People without are cinder. But it scales.

Insert here a fix for the “which comes first the half or the minus” - my suggestion… only one applies. Player’s choice.

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks!

While I'm still not in favor of transmuted paths for slot enhancers, these are more balanced.

The Trilliants still seem overpowered, and I'm guessing they stack now. At least the overall limit of 20 DR per damage type will keep it from stacking beyond that. On the bright side, perhaps the introduction of these will drive the price of the SRoEC down to where I can pick one up again. I would recommend not duplicating damage types for these though. Why not have the Relic be -10 to Sacred and Shock, and the Legendary be -10 to Cold, Fire, and Sonic. That would be a nice progression of UR preventing one type, Relic preventing two, and Legendary preventing three with none of them stacking the same type.

I recommend replacing the Ring of the Dire Ram with something else, or enhancing it, because as it is it isn't worthy of a Ring Slot. Maybe make it once per room instead of once per game if you keep it.

I thought the FAQ got updated to say that like the Havoc rings, only 1 Ioun Stone Trilliant can be equipped at a time. It should be there tomorrow.

The Ring of the Ram is fine as a Rare+ Ring. Doing 6 pts of Force damage as a FA (1/game) will be great for newish players. It is great for the situation where you think you might die soon -- or the monster seems very close to death -- and your Ring takes him over the edge.

Tyraël The Just wrote: I have more to type but have the kids… I don’t like the bead expander change. 8 of 10 characters have class legendaries in the neck slot making it a highly competitive slot. Why move away from this ? The two classes that don’t have class legendary neck slots get kinda shafted a bit.

I have other plans...

Lequinian wrote: For a 2027 transmute, but relevant to this build cycle and while BoB is still available... can we have a Bead combiner for only the TEs? (e.g. 3 TE Beads -> 1 Bead)

Yes, Mythic Avarice, but is an effective expander for the non-Safehold players, doesn't hurt the Safehold player as they still get +1 bead.

And 1 token weighs less than 3.

Please remind me in a year! Thanks.

Dougout wrote: Spirit Pet Bliss Squirrel - 12 instead of 10 max damage like the others so far? What is that squirrel eating?

She gets rather angry being summoned from her slumber in the tree Yggdrasil, and she takes it out on the poor monster.

David Zych wrote: Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.

---

My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)

Thank you for taking the time to make a very good case for your point of view. It is much appreciated. I am tweaking the energy types around so that even with keeping the -10 figure won't result in much until Legendary tokens are made. At that point, I think we can worry less about multiple level of players adventuring together.

Please note that the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command has been negating -10 since 2012 without a huge negative effect -- and player power levels were much closer then.

Also, like the Havoc Rings, only one Trilliant can be equipped at once. It will stack with the SRoEC, but only when the Trilliant is a Legendary because the energy types won't match until then.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Jeff Martin wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks!

While I'm still not in favor of transmuted paths for slot enhancers, these are more balanced.

The Trilliants still seem overpowered, and I'm guessing they stack now. At least the overall limit of 20 DR per damage type will keep it from stacking beyond that. On the bright side, perhaps the introduction of these will drive the price of the SRoEC down to where I can pick one up again. I would recommend not duplicating damage types for these though. Why not have the Relic be -10 to Sacred and Shock, and the Legendary be -10 to Cold, Fire, and Sonic. That would be a nice progression of UR preventing one type, Relic preventing two, and Legendary preventing three with none of them stacking the same type.

I recommend replacing the Ring of the Dire Ram with something else, or enhancing it, because as it is it isn't worthy of a Ring Slot. Maybe make it once per room instead of once per game if you keep it.

I thought the FAQ got updated to say that like the Havoc rings, only 1 Ioun Stone Trilliant can be equipped at a time. It should be there tomorrow.

The Ring of the Ram is fine as a Rare+ Ring. Doing 6 pts of Force damage as a FA (1/game) will be great for newish players. It is great for the situation where you think you might die soon -- or the monster seems very close to death -- and your Ring takes him over the edge.

Thanks, Jeff! I do like my recommendation on the damage types though - someone could outfit all three and they would add up to 10 pts DR to all the damage types without any stacking.

If you can't outfit more than one Trilliant, is there a reason only the UR has Darkrift reduction.

You're probably right about the Ring - looking at it from a beginning player perspective, probably on Normal mode, 6 pts of damage could make a difference.