TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Charm of Critical Taunt:
Since so many forumites participating in token design (i.e., people invested in the game to some degree) are missing it, can you update the wording to make it more obvious this modifies the Power? E.g..,

Extends "Enhanced Critical" Power to "19-20" during the rd Taunt is activated

It'd be great if you could also somehow fit in that this doesn't grant a Smiting effect, but that might be too much to put onto a token.
Of course, this assumes you won't be redesigning this to work with 4th level Dwarf Fighters.

(To be fair to fellow forumites, I also initially missed the word "Enhanced", and thought it was just a Smiting effect until I looked again.)

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Charm of Critical Taunt:
Since so many forumites participating in token design (i.e., people invested in the game to some degree) are missing it, can you update the wording to make it more obvious this modifies the Power? E.g..,

Extends "Enhanced Critical" Power to "19-20" during the rd Taunt is activated

It'd be great if you could also somehow fit in that this doesn't grant a Smiting effect, but that might be too much to put onto a token.
Of course, this assumes you won't be redesigning this to work with 4th level Dwarf Fighters.

(To be fair to fellow forumites, I also initially missed the word "Enhanced", and thought it was just a Smiting effect until I looked again.)

That I missed as well. I’m not sure if it’s possible to word it this way ?

Extends "Enhanced Critical" skill to "19-20" during the rd Taunt is activated

I’m not sure if others agree, but I think adding the word “skill” will help players differentiate that it’s not effecting the normal critical range, but the Enhanced Critical skill


EDIT: I retract this. I took a look at the wording of the token again and the 5th lvl character card and using the word “ Power” is better than skill as it’s listed as a “Special Power” not a “Special Skill”

Picc’s Grindstone: Liked this much more as a Runestone. Having to fill your main Runestone slot, and not use another Runestone (which have some neat effects or can add a type of damage), or then deciding you want to acquire Fitting Bases for more, are all choices and create variety. Having Picc’s be slotless means there is no downside to deciding to take it.

Shield of Guarding: The Paladin Guard damage negation having to be the first of the game seems to be counterproductive. Presumably hits earlier in the game are going to be weaker, and possibly something the Paladin could have recovered from regardless. Cloak of Shadowskin allows a choice whether to negate or not.

Charm of Critical Taunts:
No token in the proposed 2025 set expands crit range.
From the 2024 set, the Rare Arrow of Horus is the only token at UR and under that does so. At Relic and above, the +3 Savage Sword and Kilgor’s +4 Savage Sword do as well.
Is it intentional that this token has no enablers in the year it's printed, and the only enablers in the previous year are either consumables or Relic+?

(Sorry for spreading these comments on the same token over so many posts! I swear I'm not doing it to make reviewing hard; I'm posting as I notice things, and I prefer not to edit new ideas/thoughts into older posts, as I find that makes it harder to know if I've truly read a review or not.)

Endgame wrote: I think I figured out one of the things bugging me with the holy symbol - it seems to be giving everything to one symbol so that another doesn’t have to be made for a very long time. That’s a bummer because I’d like to be able to theme my holy symbol to my build, and if we don’t get anymore that can’t happen. For example:

Holy symbol of Pelor? I’m going full plate and smiting evil with a hammer (or baton I guess)

Holy Symbol of Selinwa? If it’s a healing holy symbol, i go robes of healing and a heavy healing build.

Holy symbol of Thor that boosts spiritual hammer? Better bet I’m equipping Thors hammer and charm of spell storing for all the hammers.

Holy symbol of Takhisis? Don’t Even care what it does, I’m wearing all the death knight gear.

That sounds like a very fun idea to me.

I'd prefer that holy symbols be more thematic with players identifying more with particular gods. I think of Selinwa as more protective, healy, guidey to where more turn damage is not terribly fitting (relatively, she also is kind of anti-undead but maybe lots of gods are).

But, I also can't get that excited if Pelor gets obsoleted by a token that will go for like $50 as holy symbol is a weird pseudo-slot.

Charm of the Hedgehog: I think it’s great and will hopefully incentivize a few more people to try a retribution build. I recognize it’s a jump above the rares that have been printed in the slot, but it’s great for players to not have to track down long OOP tokens to get a decent retribution modifier.

In PUGs and most unthemed runs there won’t be enough charms to get higher than the base damage from hedgehog. Even low AC classes are targeted by a few melee attacks in a PTD game. The dwarf and paladin can coax an extra hit or two in a combat but only in certain rooms. So a 6 point charm or 10 point cloak seems high at a glance, but it doesn’t trigger every round and is sometimes worthless in a room. There are occasionally advantageous fights are when a monster multiattacks one target, but let me tell you the hedgehog pays dearly for that damage.

I’ll also share with you how well Hedgehog runs go in VTD. The short version is that we don’t survive a lot.

The good: When the monster(s) make melee attacks against everyone in the party, they die in 2-3 rounds. We nail these rooms.

The bad: When the monster makes 1-3 melee attacks per turn (common,) The fight takes 15+ rounds. Anyone without substantial resistance to any ongoing effects in the room melt and need substantial healing. Even the melee attacks can be brutal because remember we can’t fully negate those and trigger RD. The group basically needs to have meta knowledge of the dungeon to survive these rooms. There is a big caveat in that we intentionally don’t attack the monster in these rooms, but even if we did, follow along with…

The Ugly: When we can’t hit a monster with RD we are HILARIOUSLY ill equipped to fight at Nightmare level. We sacrifice amulets, belts, rings, armors, cloaks, charms galore and more. Dexterity and saves are in the gutter, spell damage doesn’t carry us, and if a monster has DR we sometimes accomplish negative damage. We’ll likely lose the combat and if it’s room 7 we’re definitely not surviving. Oh and sometimes room 7 monsters have OHKO attacks which make me laugh the hardest, but we die all the same.

So my points (ha) are that RD focused damage isn’t anywhere near game breaking levels at this point, and the hedgehog runs aren’t a silver bullet meta-killer.


Thanks for coming to my hedge talk.

Endgame wrote: I think I figured out one of the things bugging me with the holy symbol - it seems to be giving everything to one symbol so that another doesn’t have to be made for a very long time. That’s a bummer because I’d like to be able to theme my holy symbol to my build, and if we don’t get anymore that can’t happen. For example:

Holy symbol of Pelor? I’m going full plate and smiting evil with a hammer (or baton I guess)

Holy Symbol of Selinwa? If it’s a healing holy symbol, i go robes of healing and a heavy healing build.

Holy symbol of Thor that boosts spiritual hammer? Better bet I’m equipping Thors hammer and charm of spell storing for all the hammers.

Holy symbol of Takhisis? Don’t Even care what it does, I’m wearing all the death knight gear.

If the different god’s effect didn’t matter, it would be negligible cost to have the UR slot in the set be Holy Symbol of ____, print up 6 different gods (same effect) and randomly send out when selected as PYP. Or leave as is and make the other 5 Holy Symbols URs treasure box only. Perhaps with minor differences related to the god.

Could the Holy Symbol also help the paladin some how? Like +10 to Lay on Hands?

Along that line, Holy Symbol of Nature deity - also usable by Druid?

Which opens up thoughts on Kord and Strength etc…

Charm of Critical Taunts:
A better wording came into mind if you want 4th level dwarves to have a normal extended crit range.
"Extends ALL your criticals to "19 to 20" during rd taunt is activated"

Matthew Hayward wrote: Charm of Ceitical Taunt: a pun for the ages. this token locks in enhanced critical as a level 5 Dwarf Fighter ability just ahead of class redesign, and grants the second 3x damage multiplier crit range expansion right before we are conilsidering reigning in the Rogue? It seems like this is all thin ice in design territory.

I think personally this is not that thin ice. This is extending a core class ability vs giving that core class ability to another class and extending that. To me these are very different worlds. Unless I am misunderstanding your main point.

I also echo a lot of the sentiment around Picc's Grindstone in that +2 slotless damage seems way above rate for an UR. Also, with the token no longer a Runestone, the Fitting Base likely won't need a reprint (I've changed my stance on this from a couple weeks ago after looking at more data, but I will say I'm glad there are rare runestones in this token set). So here are a few options for where to go from here:

-If Picc's is to remain slotless, it would be better to tone down the power level a bit, +1/+1 to either melee or ranged (choose at start) s strong and worthy of a commemorative token. In this scenario, Runestone Fitting Base likely doesn't need reprinted

-Change Picc's back to a reusable Runestone that requires a fitting base to use (you can still use a rare as your 1st runestone). This would also keep the need for RFB reprint.

-If it remains slotless, change Picc's Runestone to be an UR version of Enchanter's Whetstone (+1/+1 hit and damage to an UR weapon).

Belt of the Hunter: This is of course a comparable level to the Deadshot Belt (+2 damage, +1-2 hit, +1-2 AC and +1-2 REF saves vs +3 damage +2 hit for Deadshot and part of a set). However, I would just ask that you keep in mind the proposed changes to DEX for character redesign, as an additional +1-2 damage would take this belt to a tier higher than Deadshot Belt.

Here's a thought experiment given that the last I heard the bead cap was 8 and the transmute only gets players up to 7, what if the belt was +2 DEX, +1 Bead?

I think I just heard Endgame's keyboard explode...

Exbalz wrote: Belt of the Hunter: This is of course a comparable level to the Deadshot Belt (+2 damage, +1-2 hit, +1-2 AC and +1-2 REF saves vs +3 damage +2 hit for Deadshot and part of a set). However, I would just ask that you keep in mind the proposed changes to DEX for character redesign, as an additional +1-2 damage would take this belt to a tier higher than Deadshot Belt.

Here's a thought experiment given that the last I heard the bead cap was 8 and the transmute only gets players up to 7, what if the belt was +2 DEX, +1 Bead?

I think I just heard Endgame's keyboard explode...

We already have another bead expander coming via safeholds follower Dragonkin, so I really don't think we need this belt to be one.

Dergidan wrote: Oh my goodness PLEASE don't plan a nerf to the Assassin's Crossbow only to move that same ability on to a pair of Gloves for Melee.

If you have to change the synergy between the Crossbow and the Necklace, please give us all some idea of what that plan is.

A lot of Rogue players (myself included) have already invested in a lot of tokens building around this necklace and the crossbow:

At minimum:
(In Addition to the Legendary Rogue Necklace for the expanded crit range, which on its own may or may not lose in-game value due to a change)
UR Glasses (2 options) to be able to crit and sneak attack at range.
UR Weapon to get crit multiplier at range

And then add:
UR wrist or bead to ensure that critical hits affect all monsters
multiple UR or better tokens that increase ranged damage or hit
possibly a choice of hireling or follower that increases ranged damage or hit

If all of a sudden the ranged build doesn't synergize for 3x damage on crits, but a melee build does, a LOT of tokens I spent significant time and money collecting won't be as useful to me if I want to have a good Rogue build. I do NOT want the token pool to force me to switch from ranged to melee, effectively starting over.

I can only assume that the plan somehow involves taking away an ability from the necklace, so that BOTH the crossbow and gloves can 3x crit, but less often. That worries me just as much if not more, I also don't want the first legendary I ever made to suddenly not be a token I want to use any more. So what's the necklace going to do instead?

So PLEASE give some insight what the plans are for "adjusting" this synergy, before we balance new tokens around what might happen next year.

It seems there are a lot of sweeping changes brewing and it's making me reconsider whether to buy any more tokens until the dust has settled, or whether to collect tokens at all.

This isn't just all about Rogues, either. Seems a lot of the classes are in need of major rework, and I don't feel confident buying hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of tokens not knowing how they will work a year from now.

The game definitely needs some rebalancing, but stability is also important when the toys cost this much.

+1 to this great post which summarises the same concerns I have. It's hard to have an opinion on the gloves or to plan my transmutes and purchases this year without having a general idea of what's going to be changing.