TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Matthew Hayward wrote: You think +0/+4 is too much, so instead it should be +2/+4 with via Potion Bull's Strength with upside flexibility to numerous other effects?

If someone wants to spend a standard action on it, I don't mind them not having to turn in the potion. Pouch of Tulz already allows drinking a potion as a free action, so anyone can currently stack brawler's mug and bulls strength at the start of a combat, but it will require turning in the potion.

Impy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Impy wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee: I think this is too strong personally. I'd suggest +2 Damage, 1/game drink a potion without turning it in (uncommon or lower).
If it must be these stats, please consider removing monk, as I think it is unclear how this works with flurry of blows.

+1

My additional commentary
Drop Thor's to +2 damage and add a potion drinking kicker to it (It's a mug, it should have some kind of synergy with drinking). Some options would be:

...
2) Drink a common or uncommon potion without turning it in 1/game
...

You think +0/+4 is too much, so instead it should be +2/+4 with via Potion Bull's Strength with upside flexibility to numerous other effects?

There is a rare token that offers +2 to hit in the melee offhand slot. Many builds would rather have +2 to hit than +4 to damage anyway.

When I wrote this I forgot about 2024's chalice of chugging. Because I think giving up a standard action to obtain that, or a free action and a slot somewhere else for a drink potion as a free action is a completely fair trade.

Chalice of Chugging being slotless makes me less excited about my idea since there is no cost now, except to the casters

Good point - I was assuming you got to drink the UC potion as a Free or Instant Action.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: You think +0/+4 is too much, so instead it should be +2/+4 with via Potion Bull's Strength with upside flexibility to numerous other effects?

If someone wants to spend a standard action on it, I don't mind them not having to turn in the potion. Pouch of Tulz already allows drinking a potion as a free action, so anyone can currently stack brawler's mug and bulls strength at the start of a combat, but it will require turning in the potion.

Good point - I was assuming you got to drink the UC potion as a Free or Instant Action.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Point for point, to-hit is often more valuable than to-damage.

Sometimes, but not always. Once you hit about +24 hit there is very little reason to get more if you have a bard and / or cleric in your party. Even on epic, monster AC is low to mid 30s.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Death Knight Shield offers +3 STR, which is either +1/+1 or +2/+2 to melee depending on your ending STR, and also +2 AC, and also +1 or +2 to ranged thrown/mighty weapon damage, and also a retaliation damage set bonus.

It's fine that there be a usable-by-most +0/+4 in melee and nothing else token.

It doesn't obsolete DK shield in any way, as you can see from the very, very different stats the two tokens offer.

Disagree. There are enough ways to pickup +hit that a +4 damage mug just becomes the primary offhand melee slot for everyone that wants to melee and they pickup +hit from other slots. With the DK shield, heavy armor classes picked up an ever so slight gear advantage over Rogues, Bards, etc, and this just puts us back to where we were in 2023 - drinkware in the melee offhand.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Also, if you're not getting the DK set bonus, you can swap the DK shield in and out of your build for Shield of the Scholar or something, which is flexibility you don't have with the mug.

What Scroll are Fighters and Paladins using again that make this a legitimate argument?

If you think fighters are unsatisfied with their shield choices we could look at adding scrolls to the class legendary so they can use Shield of the Scholar, but I think it would be better for them to focus on AC and how it currently interacts with Viv's or focus on strength.

I know it is late in the process but why put out the Belt of the Hunter?
It is too similar to the recent Belt of the Deadshot. Excluding the AC and saving throw impact, it is a bit worse on a to hit bonus and a lower damage bonus.

I recommend going in a different direction for this belt. Maybe make it a functional reprint of the quiver of anointment but (since it isn't slotless) have it add +2 or +3 to all ammunition damage as well.

Fred

I think the idea with the belt is that rangers are going to want dex over generic plus hit/damage after the ability score changes. This belt will be a slight improvement over deadshot and possibly a good PYP.

But this is speculative until we see how the ability scores change.

Pendulum keeps swinging on Nightshade's Grim Gloves, back to underpowered.
Would work if it was step one of a transmute chain.

Or perhaps put it aside until next year after class / assassin's crossbow re-works.

Azzy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Impy wrote: Picc's Grindstone: I personally believe this token is on par with most slots (ring, charm, runestone) triply so for slotless. It was a bit better on the runestone slot. I am pretty anti-slotless stat boosts since that just becomes and assumed creep in game design which I don't find personally fun. If it's must be slotless consider reducing to +1

I agree completely, so have a +1.

My additional commentary
I believe Picc's Grindstone is dramatically more balanced as a runestone - by being a reusable runestone it still uses a slot that I could have been burning a consumable rare every run for +1 damage. So, basically, by buying a UR I would save myself the hassle of using consumables and I'd gain 1 extra damage over a rare.

Another +1 here, a re-usable runestone seems like the best option.

+1
In the future we can add more UR runestones to create choices.

Finally got the kids to bed! First i'll say I quite love the artwork this year. It has always been great, but this year they look absolutely amazing!

Amulet of Folkvangr: Seems like a good token. I am not sure how it will do in PYP or the market, but I like the design

Charm of Echoed Taunts: I am not sure why we changed it from the other version, but this seems like a step back and I am not sure if it one that will draw a lot of PYP. The version before interacted with a class power that already didnt proc very often. I guess if the point it to pull back from the x3 damage here like the talks of the Assassins Crossbow then it would work, but still think the version prior to this was good. Just needed to be worded better.

Nightshades Grim Gloves: I like the limitation of 1/combat w/ sneak but in all honesty, I have not played Rouge and I think they would have better input on this token.

Holy Symbol of Thor: I like the rename and the power seems like a good one, but the some Clerics have made a point that this is a step back and makes the Greater Holy Symbol of Pelor even more desirable since it is much more powerful. Maybe a reprint of the Pelor would be great for those who can't find / afford them and would like them. Or one that is close in power but different. I don't know how that would look but I know the Clerics would have some great ideas.

Picc's Grindstone: I love this one. I am hopefully we may see some UR Runestone that are reusable. I see on my head dozens of different ones with different skills that work with the Fitting Base and add an extra layer of fun for TD. As this Grindstone goes, and Jeffs explanation as to why it move to spotless and why it has +2 instead of +1, I think it works perfectly and is a good logic progression for the Enchanters Whetstone. It will bring many PYPs and it effects everyone and doesn't benefit one class over another.

Shield of Guarding: The wording of this is much easier to understand the the previous version. Personally as a lover of the Paladin class, I was extremely excited to see a shield that interacted with missiles. I was gladly willing to give up AC to have a neat ability. I wish this skill allowed the Paladin choose which hit to mitigate like the Shadowskin Cloak, but I understand not wanting to mirror its abilities, but the cloak gives +2 saves and as a shield its +4 AC which I think would be acceptable as it would give another UR that was close to but not exact. I would be happy if it allowed the player to choose, but as it stands... I'm iffy about getting it. If I find one super cheap then maybe but there are many better tokens, transmutes, Stronghold, Mythic tokens that I would focus over this one. But, I know that there are many others that will love this and use it.

Thor's Mug of Melee: I like it, seems like a good trade off for the slot that it will block off as you have too have it equip the entire game.

Overall, I think a hug difference from where we started but has good balance and progression for those that offer a transmute path! Thank you all for all the hard work and information. I learned a good bit and think in the end, we have a good set of UR for 2025.

Nightshade Gloves are now underwhelming compared to existing options. Just make it any Sneak if you restrict it that much... leaving it any melee crit puts them on par with the crossbow and negates our loss of offensive capability to equip them. I still want a set bonus with the Short Sword and Daggers. If a rogue is inclined to equip that way... why shouldn't melee rogues be able to match other classes, or even their own class for damage output every round possible.

Holy Symbol of Thor... doesn't affect Turning Undead... but we still have to choose only one Symbol before the dungeon... I suppose this could come in handy as long as I know ahead of time there's no need for Pelor's or one of the other symbols. It should affect Spells... let me throw a Spiritual Thor's Hammer and then a real one in their face.

Thor's Mug of Melee being restricted from any class still makes no sense.

Hedgehog still needs to wait a year even if there are less desirable URs on the list now.

The Taunty Charm is interesting but still seems weak... give it a touch or something more + saves or Retribution for the room, or make it 1/room. Can it be used for two Taunts in the same round of combat if there are multiple targets or must it be separate rounds?

Are we starting an "Of Guarding" Set for Paladins? I don't think this outweighs current options... but it's interesting if no other options are available, or if there's a set looming in the future.

Nightshade's is getting closer to being inline to be balance. But one per combat is still once more than wizards can get equipping multiple tokens (relic/legendary and an UR that take neck and ring slots of which either are more valuable slots than what Nightshade's is).

Need to remove this UR from the set to keep things in balance.