TOPIC: Let's talk Loki - Spoilers

Beertram wrote: I was actually underwhelmed by this season's finale. The Loki(s) fight wasn't bad.

I feel like they set up at least 3 of the Phase 4 movies and maybe even gave us the X-Men in the MCU, I am loved it

I'm curious how tied together Spider-Man and Dr. Strange will be since they're being released sequentially. The synopsis of Multiverse of Madness sounds like it's mostly Strange and Mordo. Also, America Chavez, so there's another Young Avenger.

Why incinerate the robots on arrival to the TVA. Why the fear in that. The three robots who were the “timekeepers”…what is the issue about the robots…

They made such an sauce about that point at first and then showed us again later.

I liked the complexity, but *really* didn't like how sympathetically they presented he-of-the-many-names' arguments with only very limited counter-arguments. Every dictator says "accept my orderly rule or the chaotic boogiemen that follow will be worse," regardless of the reality. Don't see any benevolence in his rule -- witness how all Loki variants were pruned as soon as they showed growth. I liked how Babylon 5 handled the claim of having to choose between order and chaos much, much better. One Loki, much less two, should have been at least as creative as Sheridan.

Andy Strassmann wrote: I liked the complexity, but *really* didn't like how sympathetically they presented he-of-the-many-names' arguments with only very limited counter-arguments. Every dictator says "accept my orderly rule or the chaotic boogiemen that follow will be worse," regardless of the reality. Don't see any benevolence in his rule -- witness how all Loki variants were pruned as soon as they showed growth. I liked how Babylon 5 handled the claim of having to choose between order and chaos much, much better. One Loki, much less two, should have been at least as creative as Sheridan.

I guess we will see how accurate he was about what happens when he is deposed.

Andy Strassmann wrote: I liked the complexity, but *really* didn't like how sympathetically they presented he-of-the-many-names' arguments with only very limited counter-arguments. Every dictator says "accept my orderly rule or the chaotic boogiemen that follow will be worse," regardless of the reality. Don't see any benevolence in his rule -- witness how all Loki variants were pruned as soon as they showed growth. I liked how Babylon 5 handled the claim of having to choose between order and chaos much, much better. One Loki, much less two, should have been at least as creative as Sheridan.

That wasn't the choice though. The choice was for Loki and Sylvie to take over and control the TVA, or kill him and release an 'infinite' number of Kangs. If they had taken over, they wouldn't need to accept his orderly rule, they could do as they pleased.

In retrospect, I don't think I liked this series. In terms of pacing, the first 3 episodes were very dialog heavy, and what felt like it should be the final set piece happened in episode 5 rather then 6. I need to consider the implications a little more, but it seems like the series at large kind of removes the steaks/uniqueness from the rest of the MCU. They've been doing that a lot lately though, she's not Black Widow, she's a black widow, there are like a dozen. Same costumes and everything.

I mean its cool to say look at the TVA they have like a dozen infinity stones, but that really undercuts everything that has come before. It was all destiny, no choices, no steaks, nothing that came before matters since it was all predetermined by the sacred timeline. None of the choices or sacrifices were really that heroic. They were just NPCs going through the motions.

What made the MCU special for me was that you had 10 years and 20+ movies in an epic story. Now with the multiverse you just have a brand where disney can park any stand alone superhero property they manage to buy. The details don't matter since there will always be an alternate reality where the opposite happened. You want Black Widow back, no worries, she's alive in another dimension and better yet in this timeline she's played by a cheaper actress. On the plus side I guess this gets us fox x-men I guess.

The strange thing is I still feel this was the best written of the recent entries into the MCU, there were some really good points, Sylvie was a lot of fun for example (I just wish more of her stuff could have been done by our Loki), or the gator, or 'classic' costume Loki, still over all it feels like a bowl of M&Ms mixed with skittles.

None of this really feels like it fits once you get past the superficial candy coating. Well at least the cliff hanger means season 1 is probably only the mid point of the story so I guess we'll see, but it doesn't fill me with much hope for the future of the MCU at large. Sorry for being a downer.

Picc wrote: I mean its cool to say look at the TVA they have like a dozen infinity stones, but that really undercuts everything that has come before. It was all destiny, no choices, no steaks, nothing that came before matters since it was all predetermined by the sacred timeline. None of the choices or sacrifices were really that heroic. They were just NPCs going through the motions.

It's not specifically destiny and lacking choice. The sacred timeline is pruned to stay close to what occurred in he-who-remains timeline (ex, Iron Man chooses to snap in endgame, despite the cost), but things can change fairly drastically before they are noticed and pruned. How many years did it take for Sylvie to be pruned? You have complete free choice for non consequential items and you will not be pruned (you go to taco bell instead of McDonalds, you're not going to get pruned). For items of consequence, you still have the choice to do whatever you want, but the TVA will come after you if it doesn't match the known events in the sacred timeline.

Tom Hiddleston said that he's open to playing Loki his whole life, as long as Marvel wants him to. Which to me is very good news.

Picc wrote: What made the MCU special for me was that you had 10 years and 20+ movies in an epic story. Now with the multiverse you just have a brand where disney can park any stand alone superhero property they manage to buy. The details don't matter since there will always be an alternate reality where the opposite happened. You want Black Widow back, no worries, she's alive in another dimension and better yet in this timeline she's played by a cheaper actress. On the plus side I guess this gets us fox x-men I guess.

The comics have always been this way. For those like me that followed the comics long before the movies, this was to be expected. A little surprising that they have this one clear point of transition. But now everything - comics, TV, other movie franchises - it's all canonical though they don't have to recognize or use anything more than they want. And in some ways it frees them to tell stories they couldn't before. And if they screw something up they can relegate it to an alternate timeline which they couldn't really do before.

Ultimately, they are going to have to use different actors for some parts eventually. The people will not last forever but they are still going to want to tell stories and sell their brand. This is just a convenient way to regenerate their particular brand of Doctor.

Getting back to Loki, he said at the beginning of the show that 'Free will was the biggest lie ever told.' That was straight up foreshadowing and a hint that everything we had seen in the MCU (before Loki) was a set destiny. The end of the show saw the lie end as free will came to exist. But having a set destiny doesn't make things less heroic when you have no idea that destiny exists.

Lodestone (KH) wrote:

Picc wrote: What made the MCU special for me was that you had 10 years and 20+ movies in an epic story. Now with the multiverse you just have a brand where disney can park any stand alone superhero property they manage to buy. The details don't matter since there will always be an alternate reality where the opposite happened. You want Black Widow back, no worries, she's alive in another dimension and better yet in this timeline she's played by a cheaper actress. On the plus side I guess this gets us fox x-men I guess.

The comics have always been this way. For those like me that followed the comics long before the movies, this was to be expected. A little surprising that they have this one clear point of transition. But now everything - comics, TV, other movie franchises - it's all canonical though they don't have to recognize or use anything more than they want. And in some ways it frees them to tell stories they couldn't before. And if they screw something up they can relegate it to an alternate timeline which they couldn't really do before.

Ultimately, they are going to have to use different actors for some parts eventually. The people will not last forever but they are still going to want to tell stories and sell their brand. This is just a convenient way to regenerate their particular brand of Doctor.

Getting back to Loki, he said at the beginning of the show that 'Free will was the biggest lie ever told.' That was straight up foreshadowing and a hint that everything we had seen in the MCU (before Loki) was a set destiny. The end of the show saw the lie end as free will came to exist. But having a set destiny doesn't make things less heroic when you have no idea that destiny exists.

Agree to disagree I guess. I remember reading Thor comics (issues 200 to 300ish I think) and how Thor and Loki actually left the comics for a good 2-3 years after everyone basically died in the rune king Thor arc and thinking wow they actually killed off a popular franchise, man that must have taken guts.

I understand everything now a days has to be a forever franchise so the disney money printer can go burr but It just feels cynical. Like something of value was lost or the characters deserved better. Anyway feel free to ignore me. I'm just sounding old again.

Mike Steele wrote: Tom Hiddleston said that he's open to playing Loki his whole life, as long as Marvel wants him to. Which to me is very good news.

I hope he keeps at it a long time. He is brilliant at it. I just hope they give him some better material to work on.